posted
06-11-2000 04:13 PM PT (US) 
After reading the papers today, I really wonder what mood Bruce will be in. Iwas hoping for elation b/4 this whole thing now I wonder if he will just be pissed.
I also wonder how responsible WE are for this mess.I know the media jumped on it, but there were sure a lot of misinformed people on these sites that fed into it. I can't help but think there is TOO MUCH information,alot of which is totally incorrect. And it is all there for us to read instantaneously, and either believe or discard. Politically I consider myself to be right wing consevative, yet when I hear the politico's talk about some of this issue I feel the urge to cringe. Some Police leader called Bruce a "floatin fag". Ain't that somethin? Where does something like that come from? It just gives credence to the liberal left.
I go to see Bruce for rock n roll. I never cared for his politics but I never had to listen to them. My whole reason for listening to Bruce was he spoke to my matters of the heart. I reall do not need this political shit, and he hasn't shed any new light on anything for me. What is he supposed to be enlightening me about? That it is wrong when innocent people get killed? I find that to be intellectually insulting. I already had that figured out.
I am attending six shows, and I want to hear about cars and girls and summer nights and unrequited love, and love found. If I want the news I will read the fuckin paper. Rock on Bruce, you are the best at it, that is why I am still going.
posted
06-11-2000 06:08 PM PT (US)
Man, the fact they were moved to call him a "fag" means he struck a nerve. That is outrageous. Fuck them. You wanna hear about cars and girls? You're the kinda a fan that holds him back. Why cant Bruce have something to say? Everyone else does. Let the river flow as it does dont try to make it yours.
posted
06-11-2000 06:17 PM PT (US)
Holds him back from what? I am the person who buys his music. I am entitled to my opinion. I just downloaded the song and after all this it is not even that good. Sophmoric if you ask me. But it does have a nice beat and "41 shots" is a nice cadence for all the mindless souls who will just follow him because he is their leader, Bruce. And blind faith in your leader will get you killed.....who said that? I make my own choices.
posted
06-11-2000 08:09 PM PT (US)
Miami MArk, to say that you listen to Bruce to hear about cars and girls and summer nights is like saying you listen to Dylan because of the guitar solos. You miss about 95% of it (the fact that you can be such a big fan on that basis is admirable). And that is not only your loss, that is also the loss of your surroundings. Bruce's music has had many different themes, but to me a lot of it, especially what you would refer to as his political music, is about tolerance. It's about seeing things from a different perspective and in so doing getting a better understanding of other people. The entire Ghost of Tom Joad album was about putting faces on people we otherwise tend to look down on and consciously or unconsciously categorize as second rate.
"American Skin" to me is not political. It's just another example of Bruce putting us in another person's shoes, as he likes to call it himself. This is probably a very true testament of how a lot of minority groups see the police. This is not how Bruce sees the police or how he wants *us* to see the police. This is how *Lena* sees them, and if we can just try for a moment to see what she sees, we have gained an understanding which is essential if we want to solve problems. And isn't that what we all want, left or right-wing?
Actually, I think you exaggerate when you say you don't care about Bruce's politics. I think you care about his politics to the extent that it corresponds with your own views. As soon as the lyrics cross that border where they no longer corresponds with your views, they are, by your definition, bad. Again, that is your loss. If you don't allow yourself to be moved or affected by views other than your own, you have made your life a lot harder because people will give up communicating with you. This is probably a self-perpetuating process.
Excuse me if I'm assuming too much. I know you will probably be going
in the offensive now. But all I really ask is that you don't dismiss
Bruce's music just because you don't agree with the viewpoints expressed
in it. The light that should be shed on you is letting the words help you
in understanding your fellow-human beings to your own and everybody else's
benefit. Not in helping you decide who to vote for. I'm sure you're very
capable of that yourself.
posted
06-11-2000 08:51 PM PT (US)
I find your remarks to be very codescending. What makes you the expert on what he has to say or why he says it? I have been a loyal fan of Bruce for the past 27 years. I love his writing and of course there is more to it than "cars and girls". Does that make those songs any less powerful. Does Born to Run make a political statement? Is Sandy a socio-economic parable? Is Adam raised a Cain about something more than blind rage is there message hidden deep in there. Can a song be just what it is? Maybe Tom Joad did not affect me because I never looked at people that way, as shadows who pass me by. Maybe I have always noticed them because I live with them day in , and day out. Please save your complexities for you next thesis. Maybe it is you who is missing out on the basis for the majority of the songs Bruce has written...passion.
posted
06-11-2000 08:56 PM PT (US)
Haven't heard the song. But from what I understand, this is another case of Bruce being misinerpreted. They all think he's anticop. Bruce is probably just trying to call to attention a tragedy that occurred. To bring the reality of the situation out. To try and figure out how something like this could happen.
Until we do, it's likely it could happen again. And that wouldn't be good for anybody, including the cops. And for a public official to denounce somebody as a "fag" kinda shows where the problem may be rooted.
I'm not putting the police down. They have a tough job. I wouldn't want it. But admit when you've made a mistake, guys.
posted
06-11-2000 08:59 PM PT (US)
Miami MArk is the Howard Stern of the boards. Agree, disagree, love him or hate him, he makes it easier for me to 'tune in'.
By the way, why the capital 'MA'?
Oh by the way, I just remembered why I cringe everytime I hear the song BITUSA.Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but I despise all that it represents to Bruce's misconsrued image as an artist.When something like this flap gets press, misinformed people[such as the police guy MArk described]automatically close their mind to Bruce altogether because they disagree w/his politics. And that is a shame. For example, if Miami MArk were just now being exposed to Bruce, he obviosly would be turned off by him w/o even hearing the 90% of Bruce's songs that AREN'T political. And his life would be missing out--see?? Left wing, right wing,wah wah wah...I have to agree with MArk on this I think ~~?!~~
Politics and religion just give me a headache.You can argue with anyone forever w/o changing their thick head.While I tend to agree w/Bruce's politics, I do not listen to him for that reason.Gotta hand it to him though--this was one hell of a pubicity generator--and the 'net' bit, and bit hard.
posted
06-11-2000 10:09 PM PT (US)
Is that an off handed compliment? Are any of the girls on the board going to get naked over this? (please I am just joking! I do not want to go through THAT again). I think I take it all in, review it and give my thoughts. That simple. I consider myself a right wing, republican although I believe in Freedom of Choice, I am also a Catholic. Does that make me hypocritical? I think I just follow what I believe in. If you can influence me to change great, if you cannot, hey, thats what makes this a horse race.
posted
06-11-2000 10:27 PM PT (US)
Mark do you know the difference between an
entertainer and a artist?
posted
06-11-2000 10:37 PM PT (US)
Yeah an entertainer doesn't need a second job.....
posted
06-11-2000 10:41 PM PT (US)
Mark, you are not alone. Springsteen inspires me. The music I hear makes ME want more and to do better for myself, family and community. Girls and cars, good times, tough times that's the music. what I've been reading on this board from fellow fans is so sad. get some drive, quit crying. I love the Boss, let's not forget, he's been rockin' his whole life, worked his ass off, he's never punched in a time clock, not until he had a million did he feed a family. He's a story teller and he rocks, his best music is about his life, success from hard work, not living under a bridge. Yes, he has the right to preach on stage, but someday, it won't fly. I still beleive his fan base is very conservative. Keep up the work Mark.
posted
06-11-2000 10:47 PM PT (US)
Thanks my friend. He truly does inspire me and always has. His message to me was always never give up, and nothin in life is free. I truly feel the reason he is so appealing to the liberal community now(besides his untold wealth)is he ACTAULLY WAS a working man. He REALLY DID pay some dues.
posted
06-11-2000 11:11 PM PT (US)
Yes, he worked hard. Made a living selling what people want, and didn't take a penny or handout from anybody. his "blue collar" fan base sure spends a lot of time on the net!
posted
06-11-2000 11:41 PM PT (US)
Bruce motivated me so now I have the computer
and the time to play on the net. If I had never listened to "Darkness" I might have given up and been taking from the food bank instead of giving to one.
posted
06-12-2000 12:12 AM PT (US)
I think I feel the same way as MM does about all the controversy around American Skin.
I do what I can to lessen the load for those less fortunate then me. I volunteer,donate and organize. Whatever. I understand there's an amount of responsibility that comes with Bruce's music. But for the next couple of weeks I want to rock and roll.
Bruce said:"I've done my best to live the right way..." I do what I can.
In the end life's too short... and so am I.
posted
06-12-2000 07:26 AM PT (US)
Anti-cop? I think not. Most definitely anti-violence! Anybody out there for violence? Let's remember this is the guy who has virtually single-handedly raised enough money for the trust fund of the son of the slain police officer in (I think) Long Branch, NJ to put the kid through college.
posted
06-12-2000 09:41 AM PT (US)
Do any of you Greasers out there deal with Quality issues or programs like ISO 9000? In the process of applying for ISO 9000 certification, one of the qualifications that must be met is corrective action. And - corrective action must be a closed loop. In other words, when an error/mistake is made, the root problem needs to be found and dealt with so that the mistake does not re-occur. Realistically, this does not always happen, but the intent is there.
I think, as Fred posted, Bruce is calling attention to a tragedy. The question is, how can corrective action be put into place? Ok...so you fix or deny blame on a group or individual. That case is closed. What happens when it happens again? Same thing just repeating itself. If enough attention is called to the tragedy, hopefully, SOMEONE
posted
06-12-2000 09:51 AM PT (US)
sorry...clumsy fingers this morning. to continue...SOMEONE will start to look at WHY it happened instead of WHAT happened.
Another thought came to me last night. In the Atlanta area, there was a case of a police officer using excessive force when apprehending a suspect after a car chase. Part of the defense was that people have an extrodinarily high amount of adreneline pumping through there systems during chases. It is extremely difficult to think clearly with this amount of energy flying thorugh you body and mind. They also tied it to post war syndrome somehow. sorry not to remember all the details. But it seems like they are looking for a root problem.
Hopefully, one day training will be in place to allow people in jobs like police officers to control and deal with situations where you're hyped up. (I know they have more training than you or me.)
My prayer for this controversy is to have some sort of preventative training method in place to allow for a less violent ending.
ps...MArk...why DO you have a capitol A?
kiddo
posted
06-12-2000 10:02 AM PT (US)
When you are 40 you will do anything to add a little mystery to your life....
posted
06-12-2000 10:06 AM PT (US)
aaaahhhh... You didn't have your bifocals on and you made a typo that you didn't catch. Got it. ;-)
posted
06-12-2000 06:51 PM PT (US)
gkid, my husband is a QA director, so I am very familiar with ISO...interesting analogy.
Indeed, the bottom line is no longer who, what, when, where, or even how. The issue is WHY, and prevention so that tragedies do not recur.
posted
06-12-2000 07:20 PM PT (US)
To quote MArk: "...after all this it is not even that good. Sophmoric if you ask me. But it does have a nice beat and "41 shots" is a nice cadence for all the mindless souls who will just follow him because he is their leader..."
Sophomoric? What, you'd give it a "10" for the beat? I wonder...would you have liked this song had it been on a subject about which you didn't already disagree? Who the hell elected you music critic of The Circuit, anyway? Sometimes the simplest message is the most powerful. Yes, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I find your comments insulting. I'm new here so I don't know you well, but from what I can see, you expect people to honor your opinion while being intolerant of theirs. IMHO.
OK, I waited 5 minutes, and I still want to send this.....
posted
06-12-2000 08:00 PM PT (US)
I read the words and wasn't impressed but man it sounds good. 41 shots, come on man you were singing it I was singing the crowd was singing it. Damn. It looks like he says it too much but it sounds like he doesn't say it enough. Band sounds tight. Jesus, anybody wanna bet what the first single off the hurried CD will be?
posted
06-12-2000 08:07 PM PT (US)
Missing the show, just heard rumour it was opened by Highway Patrolman but Im up all night after all this. Miami mark, i admire your honesty and integrity in your views but i feel bruce has an obligation and a willingness to do more than just simply pander to your 27 years loyal service by dishing up Rosalita once more. This I find informative and enteertaining, why even this discussion is being given impetus by the man and his actions. He is exposing an AWFUL TRUTH to a lot of Americans, one which many of you find hard to swallow having grown up with guns all your lives, which is tat a society in which you must assume that when someone puts hs hands in his pocket he is pulling out a gun rather than a comb or a picture or a glove or whatever is a seriously fucked up socey and Bruce feels a need to portray this story as politicins in yor country seem leess willing to do so - maybe Bush should play Rosie for you tonight.
Mike
posted
06-12-2000 08:12 PM PT (US)
phillygirl, MM remarks are insulting? Or is it because you disagree with him. I support him for music critic. everybody needs to relax, maybe time for apolitical hour of Lucky Town
posted
06-12-2000 11:46 PM PT (US)
No, it's not because I disagree with him. I can appreciate the arguments on both sides. What I meant was this...if you don't like the song, fine. We all have songs we don't like for one reason or another. But I think it's going a little too far to refer to those who do like it as "mindless souls." Must we resort to this? In any discussion on this board, I would hope that a condescending attitude would not enter into the picture. 'Nuff said.
posted
06-13-2000 02:00 AM PT (US)
no no no!
let's not get carried away here--I just heard the song...yes, haunting-yes, a bit compelling, yes-powerful in it's subtety....but a SINGLE???
no no no way no how. Anyone outside of nyc who is not a 'tramp' will wonder what the hell is he talking about? It will remind casual listeners of radio of '57 channels' i'm sure-even though we know that would be silly. It would not do well on the charts, nor would it get airplay, and the music media would make it worse by saying 'highly anticipated Bruce single flops...blah blah'
and that would just about kill any hope of getting our guy some attention he deserves.
LOHAD deserves to be heard and should lead off the next assault on radio.It would do well on many formats.
BY THE WAY....has anyone counted the number of times he says '41
shots...'
I haven't, but it would be cool if it was 41 times.
posted
06-13-2000 06:49 AM PT (US)
I thought the lyrics to American Skin were absolutely awesome when I read them, I still haven't heard the song yet. I think that it is the repeated line of "41 Shots" as opposed to the later references to the Diallo shooting that have got the NYPD riled. One of Bruces weakest attributes as an artist as I see it, is his occasional underestimation of the responses and misunderstandings his songs will bring with an audience (think BUSA). I think the same may be said here. If he did not start the whole song off with repeating "41 Shots" loads of times I think many people would find it less "anti-cop".
Miami MArk, I don't agree with your politics or like half of your jokes, but you are clearly a big fan and the other half of your jokes make me laugh real hard, so do stick around! But I must say you are missing out on a huge part of Bruce's gift if you only go to him for cars and girls and rock n roll. If I only dug him for that, I wouldn't be half the fan I am today. There are loads of other bands that sing about that stuff pretty damn well too; Bruce reaches out to me because he embraces so much else in addition to the classical rock n roll imagery. I'm not talking only about the politics here. Just the idea that you gotta go out and struggle through your problems to come out on top, because there's nothing else to do.
I believe in the hope and I pray
that someday it may raise me
above these badlands...
posted
06-13-2000 07:05 AM PT (US)
I do not know what you are talking about? I am never joking. As for understanding Bruces' music....spare me Professor, I umderstand every song for what it is, on every level. If my interpertation is different from yours so be it. As far as "cars & Girls" go read my post again, and try not to be so intelligent in your interpertations.
posted
06-13-2000 12:01 PM PT (US)
When you look at any form of art, you will inevitably bring your experiences, feelings, circumstances into your experience of what is being shown or said.
Surely, Bruces music is about making a "connection" touching on issues that mean something to you. I would guess that most of us will look for things in his songs that relate specifically to our experiences, sometimes even if those things aren't even there!! If you associate with cars and girls those are the things that Bruce will be talking to you about, if you are politically motivated you will drag out a political message, if you've been through the "darkness" you will recognise the emotional side, if you are poetic you'll side eith teh BTR album and if you are spiritual you can find this in his music too.
I want Bruce to represent me, to say the things I would say if I was in his shoes. Why should we feel let down by him? Does he owe us anything??? Did he promise us anything??? Just 'cause he might not agree with us does it make him wrong???
I'm more guilty than most for being a "Bruce Snob",thinking I "get it" more than others (no that is not a sexual innuendo!) I won't even leave Born In The USA on show in my car for fear that people will think I am just another casual fan!!!!!
As far as I can see, Bruce's songs are always about individuals, in individual situations. One thing they are NOT is judgemental. Here's a situation, here are the faces on the people who are affected, can you feel what that means???
Take from it what you can, if it makes a difference TO YOU, then great, if not....
What once seemed black and white is so many shades of grey and ....tonight
I'm looking for that connection!!