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#1 Joadboy

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 07:49 PM

Decent performance from LFC today... should have put it to bed by half time, but the right result in the end.

Arsenal fans should be worried by two things:

1 They could not field a decent side in only the second league game of the season.

2 An awful lot of empty seats at the Emirates... just watch MOTD. No point having a big fuck-off stadium if you cant even come close to filling it on your first home game of the season.

But back to LFC I thought Downing was MOTM and it was a bit curious that the two best players on either team (Mierieles, Suarez) didnt get on the pitch until 70 minutes had elapsed,

Its not like they have anything else to compete for. None of this "resting" nonsense, Kenny. There is nothing to rest for.
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#2 Cozmic Kid

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 08:14 PM

Decent performance from LFC today... should have put it to bed by half time, but the right result in the end.

Arsenal fans should be worried by two things:

1 They could not field a decent side in the second league game of the season.

2 An awful lot of empty seats at the Emirates... just watch MOTD. No point having a big fuck-off stadium if you cant even come close to filling it on the first home game of the season.

But back to LFC I thought Downing was MOTM and it was a bit curious that the two best players on either team (Mierieles, Suarez) didnt get on the pitch until 70 minutes had elapsed,

Its not like they have anything else to compete for. None of this "resting" nonsense, Kenny. There is nothing to rest for.


Suarez have hardly had time off this year. If we just play him all of the time he will suddenly wear out big time.

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#3 C4G

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:42 PM

Its not like they have anything else to compete for. None of this "resting" nonsense, Kenny. There is nothing to rest for.


Not so! You have the League Cup coming up :P

More seriously....Arsenal are in deep doodoo. If Nasri goes there is no way they'll get a top 4 finish methinks. Liverpool on the other hand look decentish.

#4 AMIW

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:17 PM

>>> Arsenal are in deep doodoo

With all the injuries and suspensions they have now called up some players from their youth team squad for
the man u game next sunday

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#5 borntorunsean

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:01 AM

Decent performance by the reds. Suarez was never going to start and rightly so, the guy was fucked after 60 minutes last week at home. God knows why players are but a number of the starting 11 looked shattered last week.

Still Have my concerns about the centrebacks and how bloody deep they play, they need to get a higher line and press the play better.

Downing? never had a worry about him. genuine class. Enrigue? looks an absolute beast at left back, walcott couldnt run him. Adam? really not sure on this lad. But we will see.

I think they are still figuring out how to get the best out of carroll.

Oh and why was that arsenal player not given a straight red? disgusting decision just to give him another yellow. he will just get a one match ban for a career wrecking challenge.

Oh and Lucas is bloody boss in midfield. the guy has been top class for ages now.

#6 Orakelet

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:16 AM

What's your opinion on Adam and Henderson?
I know it's early, and that they need time to settle in, but both performances from these two have been bad. Poor passing, not enough work-rate, poor movements.
I have my hopes up for Henderson, but Adam? A one-season-wonder maybe...

But then again, I am usually wrong, so hopefully I am now as well :P


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#7 borntorunsean

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:26 AM

What's your opinion on Adam and Henderson?
I know it's early, and that they need time to settle in, but both performances from these two have been bad. Poor passing, not enough work-rate, poor movements.
I have my hopes up for Henderson, but Adam? A one-season-wonder maybe...

But then again, I am usually wrong, so hopefully I am now as well :P



Henderson looks decent. Neat and tidy on the ball, good engine if a little raw at the minute. I suspect he has been bought with an eye on the future. Adam? looks like he lacks any match fitness. I certainly don't thing he is top draw like the media have us to beleive. It will be interesting whats happens when gerrard comes back with the midfield.

#8 Joadboy

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 12:05 PM

I think Adam will be fine, he has a clear briefing from kenny on his role.

Henderson.... not sure where and how he fits in... but its early days. I suspect he will make way for SG.

Would like to see him sign one good central defender, not sure Carra has a full season in him, the greek is too slow and Agger will get injured.

Scott Dann or Ryan Shawcross would be OK.

Then there won't be any more spending for a long time, unless its financed from sales. Fenway want return on their investment now, and the FFP regulations are looming on the horizon.
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#9 borntorunsean

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 12:07 PM

Then there won't be any more spending for a long time, unless its financed from sales. Fenway want return on their investment now, and the FFP regulations are looming on the horizon.


Going to be very interesting to see what they do.

#10 Growin' Up

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 03:53 PM

To be fair, Arsenal haven't spent over 100 million on players!

Aside from a bit of bad luck with the first goal, and youthful exuberance/stupidity - there was little to choose between the teams.
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#11 Joadboy

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 06:26 PM

I think the argument, surely, is that they SHOULD have spent 100 million on players.

And anyway if you take off the torres money, its a lot less than 100m.
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#12 Growin' Up

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:56 PM

I think the argument, surely, is that they SHOULD have spent 100 million on players.



Perhaps, but having watched the game, there was very little between the sides - Arsenal's already depleted squad was also missing Wilshere-Diaby-Song from their midfield, who arguably all would have started. Yes, Liverpool missed Gerrard - but that's still three first team midfield players missing.

Despite all this and not to mention Arsenal having half their defence out, it took a sending off (and the introduction of Suarez) to allow Liverpool to assert their superiority. So I think it's wrong to say Arsenal could not field a decent side as they were Liverpool's match for the majority of the game.

I take your point regarding the net spending, but have Liverpool signed any players who the other top 5 teams would want? Suarez would get in the Spurs team, but apart from that... Adam is a decent mid-table PL player - same for Jose Enrique, Henderson has potential, Downing on his day is very good - but also horribly inconsistent. And as for Carroll - £30 million is a joke. Liverpool have overspent and overspent on players none of the top 5 would have touched.
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#13 newcastle roy

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:34 PM

The two ex Newcastle United players will give liverpool a chance of winning something this year, but they wont.

and as for Arsenal, what a damn shame, 6 years without a pot, 6 years them poor fans what a shame.


 


#14 AMIW

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 12:39 AM

The two ex Newcastle United players will give liverpool a chance of winning something this year, but they wont.

and as for Arsenal, what a damn shame, 6 years without a pot, 6 years them poor fans what a shame.


i heard that some arsenal fans have been calling the Toon Samaritans Hotline to learn how to deal with a long barren trophyless spell :(

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#15 Growin' Up

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 11:28 AM

Actually, Carroll cost £35 million! The same price as one Sergio Aguero!!


Whilst Keegan was at Newcastle, Wolves made a bit for Carroll - around the £1-2million mark which was accepted by Keegan (although ultimately overruled by the board).
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#16 Joadboy

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 11:34 AM

Liverpool have overspent and overspent on players none of the top 5 would have touched.


Thats a very subjective judgement. Time will provide a more objective one. If they get a top-four finish and the CL TV income that follows, I think Fenway will regard it as money well spent.

Of couse they could have not spent. Like Arsenal. And they could be in Arsenals situation, with a visit to Old Trafford coming up and a strong likelihood of only one point out of the first nine. Arsenal could be about to experience the kind of autumn that Liverpool had last year.
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#17 borntorunsean

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 12:08 PM


I think the argument, surely, is that they SHOULD have spent 100 million on players.



Perhaps, but having watched the game, there was very little between the sides - Arsenal's already depleted squad was also missing Wilshere-Diaby-Song from their midfield, who arguably all would have started. Yes, Liverpool missed Gerrard - but that's still three first team midfield players missing.

Despite all this and not to mention Arsenal having half their defence out, it took a sending off (and the introduction of Suarez) to allow Liverpool to assert their superiority. So I think it's wrong to say Arsenal could not field a decent side as they were Liverpool's match for the majority of the game.

I take your point regarding the net spending, but have Liverpool signed any players who the other top 5 teams would want? Suarez would get in the Spurs team, but apart from that... Adam is a decent mid-table PL player - same for Jose Enrique, Henderson has potential, Downing on his day is very good - but also horribly inconsistent. And as for Carroll - £30 million is a joke. Liverpool have overspent and overspent on players none of the top 5 would have touched.



Really dont know why you're trying to compare the two teams. Everyone with a brain knows that teams who introduce large numbers of new players take time to settle, but you're hell bent on coming to a conclusion after two games. Henderson, adam, enrique, even suarez and carroll can can hardly be judges now.

Why dont you wait for a period beforing ramming you views down everyones throats. You go on about carrolls price, why not go on about suarez being vastly under valued and what a deal we got there Just like with Torres.

One more thing, i really would not beleive the transfer fees you see reported in tabloids as there are vastly exagerated.

You compare carroll and aguero. Carroll will be on 80,000 grand over 4-5 years, aguero more likely 200,000 to 250,000. Im sure you can do the maths there to see that he is a vastly more expensive purchase.

#18 Growin' Up

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 12:17 PM



I think the argument, surely, is that they SHOULD have spent 100 million on players.



Perhaps, but having watched the game, there was very little between the sides - Arsenal's already depleted squad was also missing Wilshere-Diaby-Song from their midfield, who arguably all would have started. Yes, Liverpool missed Gerrard - but that's still three first team midfield players missing.

Despite all this and not to mention Arsenal having half their defence out, it took a sending off (and the introduction of Suarez) to allow Liverpool to assert their superiority. So I think it's wrong to say Arsenal could not field a decent side as they were Liverpool's match for the majority of the game.

I take your point regarding the net spending, but have Liverpool signed any players who the other top 5 teams would want? Suarez would get in the Spurs team, but apart from that... Adam is a decent mid-table PL player - same for Jose Enrique, Henderson has potential, Downing on his day is very good - but also horribly inconsistent. And as for Carroll - £30 million is a joke. Liverpool have overspent and overspent on players none of the top 5 would have touched.



Really dont know why you're trying to compare the two teams. Everyone with a brain knows that teams who introduce large numbers of new players take time to settle, but you're hell bent on coming to a conclusion after two games. Henderson, adam, enrique, even suarez and carroll can can hardly be judges now.

Why dont you wait for a period beforing ramming you views down everyones throats. You go on about carrolls price, why not go on about suarez being vastly under valued and what a deal we got there Just like with Torres.

One more thing, i really would not beleive the transfer fees you see reported in tabloids as there are vastly exagerated.

You compare carroll and aguero. Carroll will be on 80,000 grand over 4-5 years, aguero more likely 200,000 to 250,000. Im sure you can do the maths there to see that he is a vastly more expensive purchase.




Easy tiger! I was merely offering an opinion. Not being a glory hunter, I'm not biased one way or the other - I hope Liverpool do well this season. To address some of your points ( and ignoring your childish half a brain comment) - I accept that I was not a party to the transfers, so we don't know for sure - however it has been commonly reported that both players cost £35 million. Which is indeed laughable imo as Aguero is far superior to Carroll. I take your point re wages, and I also take your point on Suarez. Whilst not a bargain as such - his valuation is more accurate.

Secondly, i'm not 'hell bent' on comparing the teams. That's a laughable comment - I suggest you re-read the thread. I was responding to Joadboy's post about Arsenal not being able to field a decent team, whereas they were at least Liverpool's equals throughout the match - despite their many injury woes and being down to 10 men.

Thirdly, this is a sport discussion - we're all offering opinions. Whilst it's true that it's early days in their Liverpool careers, I can judge (or at least offer an opinion) on their respective qualities. Being a season ticket holder at Molineux, I've watched them play numerous times.

The Torres deal was a magnificent deal - I grant you that. Just a shame that they spunked almost 3/4 of it on Carroll. They should have made do with the Kuyt-Suraez-Ngog strikers until the end of the season when they could have got Carroll cheaper, or signed a player more derserving of the 35million fee.

The problem with extravagent spending is that the top 3 (possibly 4 with Spurs - although their financial situation is slightly different) are building castles on sand. Arsenal, despite their many failings, are a profitable business enterprise and not reliant on external debt.
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#19 borntorunsean

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 12:36 PM

ofcourse aguero is a better player than carroll. Aguero has played in a top league for 4 years and for his national team. Carroll to a large degree is still unproven. I have vast reservations about him personally.

The comparison is silly bar the fee. The problem with transfer fees is people assume like a car, or house that fees reflect the market and look at them as one. Aguero only had city after him due to his wage demands, so basic supply and demand tells us the fee is not going to get driven up my competition.

Carroll also has the "english premium" factor. Like downing, like ashly young (17m for a guy with one year on a contract left), like carrick, like others who because they are english fetch more cash for some stupid reason.

Why you compare carroll and aguero is beyond me as its clear as day that liverpool could not pay his wages and more to the point could not attract him to the club. Just becasue you have some cash does not mean you can get the players you want.

Im guessing what kenny has done, and bought players who know the league, will hit the graound running and give the the club a chance of getting 4th, so maybe next season they can attract better players/bigger names as they are in the europeon cup.

Sensible, instead of gambling on players from abroad, and if they dont start well being out of things by christmas, and fucked for the following season again.

#20 Growin' Up

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 12:42 PM

I am comparing them on their fees - that's true. One world class striker signed for £35 million and the other is an unproven - mid table striker at best who also cost 35 million. I take on board the English cost hike, although I dispute your assertion that only City were interested in Aguero. Serie A clubs were also interested. Wages are of course a factor, yet I fail to see how you can't comprehend comparing two strikers who cost the same amount of money.

Liverpool have improved their squad, there's no doubt about that. However have they improved their squad with enough quality to break into the top 4/5? I would say no. Despite spending in excess of £100 million. Now, arguments over whether this amount is net or gross is irrelevant. The fact is Liverpool had £100+ million to spend. Henderson has potential. Jose Enrique is a good left back -but that aside...
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#21 borntorunsean

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 12:56 PM

fair post pal its your view. My view is the players signed will give us a chance of getting back into the top 4 although thats a fair debate.

Again with carroll and aguero i dont see why the comparison is required when liverpool could only attract one. If you want to compare fees for players fine and you will go round in circles the way fees are now. it makes a mockery of players and ability. Fees do not always reflect the better player, and thats the crux of your argument.

Could liverpool have spent 35m on a better striker? id guess so? although to know that you would have to one, know who is better, two, know who would come to the club(you do remember the mess the club was in, in january and lost one of the worlds best striker? hardly attractive for players is it?), three, understand what kenny wanted to acheive.

If you know all that, coupled with the fact that teams do not sell their best players mid season i take my hat off to you. Take all that on board and you see why carroll was maybe an option, although on a vastly inflated fee.

Liverpool, in january were close to a relegation battle, lost torres, who although a lazy sod was scoring the goals. Gerrard was injured. Do you really think they could have risked coming out of that window with david ngog as our main striker? Potential relegation would have loomed. So you surely understand the desperation in the buying and fees coupled with have 50m plus babels transfer fee of spending rashly?

#22 Joadboy

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 12:59 PM

Henderson has potential. Jose Enrique is a good left back -but that aside...


That aside, Charlie Adam was one of the players of the season last year and was being courted by Manu (depsite your claim that no-one else would be interested), Downing has been terrific so far and is proven quality, and there's enough in Carroll's game to bring 15 goals this season (had a perfectly good one against Sunderland chalked off).

As to who was bossing the Arsenal game, we will have to disagree. Most of the papers seemed to think that the gooners were just holding on.

But if you are pre-occupied with big spending, you might want to take a look at Mr. David De Gea's first few performances for Manu.............................£17.8m, that cost!
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#23 Growin' Up

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 02:12 PM

Agreed - but he does have the potential to be a top goalkeeper and arguably has 20 years ahead of him.

Judging from Man Yoo's signings, Adam was just paper talk. I can't see how he would have got anywhere near Utd's starting 11. He had one good season in the PL for a struggling side. Excellent left foot, but little pace and it will be interesting to see how he performs now that he's not a big fish. Wolves signed O'hara for £4million - and I wouldn't swap him for a £7milion Adam.

We've got to agree to disagree that Downing is 'proven quality'. Many AV fans would disagree. Is he the type of player a top 4 side would go in for? I doubt it. Carroll does have enough quality to get 15 goals - but then so does Steven Fletcher - and he cost less than £7 million - i.e. you could buy 5 Steven Fletcher's for one Andy Carroll!

As I say, I have no agenda here - I hope Liverpool do well. I certainly hope they do better than the likes of Man City and Chelsea - but they have bought fairly ordinary players. Had Hodgson spent £50 million on the likes of Carroll and Henderson - there would have been uproar.
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#24 borntorunsean

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 02:36 PM

Many villa fans would disagree? he was the supporters player of the year last season.

#25 Growin' Up

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 02:58 PM

"In my personal opinion Ashley Young is a better player than Downing and had contributed to a top 6 team for quite a few years. Downing came from a relegated team had a big injury, had one good season"

"I think the difference between Young and Downing is that Young is seen as a more "Dymanic" player who could really progress to another level when playing around world class players, Downing is more of a what you see is what you get Player!

Downing last season is a player at the very top of his game and i dont think he will improve much more imo, Young is a different kettle of fish!"

"If we could get n'zogbia first then i would let downing go for the right money"


This is just from one page on an AV forum (http://www.avillafan...pic=6357&st=405). I don't have the time (or the inclination!) to trawl through all of it - and although there are positive comments, many fans aren't too disappointed to see him leave.


I'm friends with many fans of AV and they were all in the agreement that Young was the player they wanted to keep. Every time i've seen Downing he's been very ordinary - simply my opinion of course - but he's not a Liverpool player.
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