JustDan

Trayvon Martin Blues

2,705 posts in this topic

My posts and thoughts about this whole tragic situation were about the way the incident was portrayed in the media and the fact that not one of us, or those drawing conclusions in the press had a clue as to what transpired that night. The lynch mob mentality, the way Zimmerman was convicted by people with no clue, the twitters, the t-shirts and the 'jumping to conclusions' based on little or no facts was and is appalling to me.

Even if this guy turns out to be a murderer, it doesn't change the way I feel about the way some people treated this thing. If he is tried and convicted then I guess people can high five each other because they were right....this time. Next time, maybe some poor innocent bastard gets shot in the chest because of a mass twitter or some other nonsense.

This!

Next time, maybe somebody like Spike Lee gives out the address of who he thinks is guilty so that his followers can go do their vigilante justice.

Wait - I mean next time maybe he gives out the right address instead of some retired couple's place.

Of course what you guys are failing to realize is that Zimmerman is NOT being subjected to any kind of prosecutorial process. He is (currently) walking away scott-free from killing a 17 YO kid. "If" he is tried and convicted? Even "if" he turns out to be a murderer? Well, I guess that part is right...."if".

And what vigilante justice are you talking about? Zimmerman has not been subjected to any such thing. Since when is outrage over an apparent whitewash of an investigation "vigilante justice"?

P13--again, a complete meeting of minds.

You can't chase someone down,kill them, and claim self-defense.

No one has suggesting a lynching, which would be a rush to judgment. But a real investigation and an arrest would be nice.

OK - The NBC thing about the 'edited' version of the 911 call is just one new example of the media putting out info that is incorrect or slanting the story one way or the other. Instead of just reporting facts. My lynching comment was directed to the t-shirts, wanted posters and the details in Spike's twitter that basically put a target on Zimmerman and an innocent old couple. Regardless of how you feel about this case, I hope we can agree that stuff is just wrong.

I still don't know if he 'chased him down and killed him'. That may be exactly what happened...it may not be and undfortunatly there may not be sufficient proof one way or the other to put in front of a jury.

Most of what bothered me about this incident came from the media coverage, but there were posts on page one of this thread dating back almost 2 weeks ago (when we knew even less than we do now) wanting to 'throw the book' at Zimmerman and claiming it was a racially motivated situation. I take issue with making those types of claims with zero factual information. That type of reaction here and anywhere else does nothing but make a bad situation worse. It helps enflame hatred before there is sufficient facts to make any kind pf proper judgement. The only consistant fact from day one is that this is a tragedy that should not have happened. How and why it did happen is still an open issue to me.

I agree that a proper invsetigation is needed and I hope that is happening.

As I had listened to the entire 911 call, I am the one who originally pointed this out (if you read earlier in the thread). This was not, however, a slanting of the story because of the other things Zimmerman said on the tape. As for t-shirts, Spike Lee, etc.--of course we agree that was out of bounds. But most out of bounds is the fact that there's a young man--a child really--who was killed for living in his American skin. The innocent old couple have been harassed...but they are still alive.

Is there anyone on this thread who doesn't at this point realize Trayvon Martin is an innocent victim, too?

The link to the police call is so clear--Zimmerman chased Trayvon Martin down and killed him. The police dispatcher should have said, "Please do not follow him" instead of "You don't have to do that" but that doesn't give Zimmerman the license to chase down a young, unarmed child who has done NOTHING wrong. If Trayvon Martin had done something wrong, wouldn't Zimmerman have mentioned it in the tape? This isn't rocket science, folks.

That tape isn't "zero factual information." There was abundant information from that tape that Zimmerman should have been arrested. That is not a rush to judgment. It's a very simple assessment of the facts provided by JUST the police tape.

The fact that Zimmerman has a record of violence and Martin didn't...the fact that Zimmerman looks just fine in the video...those are all further facts. But we had all the facts we needed to know that an unarmed youth (Trayvon Martin) was killed by someone who (Zimmerman) pursued him for no actionable reason.

As for being respectful to police--my mother never gave me that lecture. I got the lecture that you should always be respectful to adults and people in authority--teachers, etc. It has always stood me in good stead.

But then again, I'm White.

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Whats amazing is the media left out the part about asking him about the race of Mr. Martin, and now its the media hiring a forensic expert to tell us the voice on the police tape IS Mr. Martin. Since when did the newspapers become CSI? Sounds like an agenda to me. Because if Zimmerman is innocent, there aint no story there.

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Innocent of what? There's a dead unarmed child that was pursued and gunned down.

Gives a whole new meaning to the term "smoking gun."

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It's not possible that he's innocent. Hence, the "dead or alive" posters.

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The facts do not support his innocence so he should be in jail. And then...he should have his day in court.

Something he did not allow Trayvon Martin...but hey, it's his America.

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Whats amazing is the media left out the part about asking him about the race of Mr. Martin, and now its the media hiring a forensic expert to tell us the voice on the police tape IS Mr. Martin. Since when did the newspapers become CSI? Sounds like an agenda to me. Because if Zimmerman is innocent, there aint no story there.

Actually, the experts are ruling out the voice on the tape as zimmermans. The voice yelling "help" does not identify as the voice on the 911 call. They cannot say who it is or even if it's that fight. The article said all that, though, so it's not part of the overblown media

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As I had listened to the entire 911 call, I am the one who originally pointed this out (if you read earlier in the thread). This was not, however, a slanting of the story because of the other things Zimmerman said on the tape. As for t-shirts, Spike Lee, etc.--of course we agree that was out of bounds. But most out of bounds is the fact that there's a young man--a child really--who was killed for living in his American skin. The innocent old couple have been harassed...but they are still alive.

My comment about slanting the story is again geared more towards the way the media mis-reported this incident. The NBC thing is just the latest slanted reporting. I also don't know if Martin's skin color had anything to do with what happened. Thankfully the old couple only had to endure moving out of their home and were not harmed. In fact, I think Spike has already paid them off.

Is there anyone on this thread who doesn't at this point realize Trayvon Martin is an innocent victim, too?

This is where it gets tough. I truly feel bad about T. Martin, it should not have happened. But I am not convinced he is innocent. I don't know what happened that night.

The link to the police call is so clear--Zimmerman chased Trayvon Martin down and killed him. The police dispatcher should have said, "Please do not follow him" instead of "You don't have to do that" but that doesn't give Zimmerman the license to chase down a young, unarmed child who has done NOTHING wrong. If Trayvon Martin had done something wrong, wouldn't Zimmerman have mentioned it in the tape? This isn't rocket science, folks.

I listened to the tape and I heard what the dispatcher said. Zimmerman should have stayed where he was that is for sure. He is certainly guilty of poor judgement. But I have no idea if he chased anyone down. I have no idea if Martin turned around and attacked the guy that was following him. I'm not sure how you know that Zimmerman chased the guy down with 100% certainty.

That tape isn't "zero factual information." There was abundant information from that tape that Zimmerman should have been arrested. That is not a rush to judgment. It's a very simple assessment of the facts provided by JUST the police tape.

The content of the tape is factual. Interpreting that content as it pertains what actually occured is anything but.

The fact that Zimmerman has a record of violence and Martin didn't...the fact that Zimmerman looks just fine in the video...those are all further facts. But we had all the facts we needed to know that an unarmed youth (Trayvon Martin) was killed by someone who (Zimmerman) pursued him for no actionable reason.

The video of Zimmerman looking fine is now in question. Zimmermans record of violence wasn't known when this thread started or when the first 'slanted' reports came out. Which was when I first posted my thoughts about the way this story was getting 'played' by the media.

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Isn't there one minute where there is no recording and nobody really knows what happened? Zimmerman says he went back to his van or something?

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What could Trayvon Martin be guilty of? Remember--Zimmerman's story is that Trayvon was reaching for the gun...you can't reach for what you don't see. Trayvon didn't have a gun...so this story isn't really that much of a mystery if you want to actually examine the facts we do have.

Zimmerman deserves his day in court.

Not only does he not deserve to be hanging out with his gun, he is a potential danger to himself and others.

When Bruce dedicated American Skin to Trayvon, I was so glad he and I were on the same page and he had the courage of his convictions to dedicate this song to him, as I had used the lyrics to show my friend I understood her heartache and concern for her son. This is a Bruce fan board and it always means something to me when Bruce and I are on the same page...it happens so often it's spooky at times.

I honestly will never understand some of the posts in this thread.

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The facts do not support his innocence so he should be in jail. And then...he should have his day in court.

Something he did not allow Trayvon Martin...but hey, it's his America.

You continue to ascribe intent to Zimmerman where none has been established.

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innocence - http://www.thefreedi...y.com/innocence

1. The state, quality, or virtue of being innocent, as:

a. Freedom from sin, moral wrong, or guilt through lack of knowledge of evil.b. Guiltlessness of a specific legal crime or offense.c. Freedom from guile, cunning, or deceit; simplicity or artlessness.d. Lack of worldliness or sophistication; naiveté.e. Lack of knowledge or understanding; ignorance.f. Freedom from harmfulness; inoffensiveness.2. One that is innocent.3. Botany See blue-eyed Mary.

intent - http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/intent

1. Something that is intended; an aim or purpose. See Synonyms at intention.2. Law The state of one's mind at the time one carries out an action.3. Meaning; purport.

In what way am I addressing intent?

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The facts do not support his innocence so he should be in jail. And then...he should have his day in court.

Something he did not allow Trayvon Martin...but hey, it's his America.

You continue to ascribe intent to Zimmerman where none has been established.

And some of you continue to overlook the fact that a young man was needlessly shot and killed and zimmerman was the one with the gun. He should have his day in court but first he needs to be arrested and arraigned. As of now, he is still a free man.

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A free man with a gun that he used to end the life of an unarmed youth.

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A free man with a gun that he used to end the life of an unarmed youth.

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JUST. FACT.

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A free man with a gun that he used to end the life of an unarmed youth.

That doesn't automatically make him guilty.

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What could Trayvon Martin be guilty of? Remember--Zimmerman's story is that Trayvon was reaching for the gun...you can't reach for what you don't see. Trayvon didn't have a gun...so this story isn't really that much of a mystery if you want to actually examine the facts we do have.

Zimmerman deserves his day in court.

Not only does he not deserve to be hanging out with his gun, he is a potential danger to himself and others.

When Bruce dedicated American Skin to Trayvon, I was so glad he and I were on the same page and he had the courage of his convictions to dedicate this song to him, as I had used the lyrics to show my friend I understood her heartache and concern for her son. This is a Bruce fan board and it always means something to me when Bruce and I are on the same page...it happens so often it's spooky at times.

I honestly will never understand some of the posts in this thread.

Not knowing what happened, I can only speculate on various scenario's that led to the tragic death of Mr. Martin. One possibility is that he confronted Zimmerman for follwing him. That confrontation became violent and Zimmerman shot Martin in self defense as he claims.

Zimmerman may also be a warped asshole with a gun and chased Martin down and shot him dead in cold blood for no reason at all.

Or maybe it was somewhere in the middle of these two possibilities.

Fact is, I don't know.

It's tragic, it's horrible and I feel bad for T. Martin and his family. Your 100% correct about Zimmerman deserving his day in court. But the way it works is he has to be charged. He can't be charged without proper factual evidence that ties him to a crime. I believe the authorities have been investigating this for some time now and Zimmerman's attorney has stated he will turn himself in if he is charged.

I don't want a guilty person to walk away anymore than I'd want an innocent person charged for a crime they didn't commit. But there is procedure to follow and Florida has laws regarding this very type of situation. Not sure I personally agree with these laws, but that doesn't matter nuch.

I'm more concerned of what may happens if it is decided that there is insufficient evidence to bring charges.

And the one thing you & I will never agree on...41 Shots is my least favorite Bruce song of all time. But many discussions about the song have appeared on the main board, so we can leave it at that.

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He should have his day in court but first he needs to be arrested and arraigned. As of now, he is still a free man.

In theory, I agree. But unlike you, I do not pretend to be an expert on Florida law.

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A free man with a gun that he used to end the life of an unarmed youth.

That doesn't automatically make him guilty.

No. But it's enough to put him behind bars, especially since Zimmerman was the chaser, not the chasee.

Fact.

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I don't want a guilty person to walk away anymore than I'd want an innocent person charged for a crime they didn't commit. But there is procedure to follow and Florida has laws regarding this very type of situation. Not sure I personally agree with these laws, but that doesn't matter much.

This, this, a thousand times this.

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A free man with a gun that he used to end the life of an unarmed youth.

That doesn't automatically make him guilty.

No. But it's enough to put him behind bars, especially since Zimmerman was the chaser, not the chasee.

Fact.

There's a difference between chasing and following.

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Is "This" the new "+1" 'round here? Just thinkin' to myself.

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What could Trayvon Martin be guilty of? Remember--Zimmerman's story is that Trayvon was reaching for the gun...you can't reach for what you don't see. Trayvon didn't have a gun...so this story isn't really that much of a mystery if you want to actually examine the facts we do have.

Zimmerman deserves his day in court.

Not only does he not deserve to be hanging out with his gun, he is a potential danger to himself and others.

When Bruce dedicated American Skin to Trayvon, I was so glad he and I were on the same page and he had the courage of his convictions to dedicate this song to him, as I had used the lyrics to show my friend I understood her heartache and concern for her son. This is a Bruce fan board and it always means something to me when Bruce and I are on the same page...it happens so often it's spooky at times.

I honestly will never understand some of the posts in this thread.

Not knowing what happened, I can only speculate on various scenario's that led to the tragic death of Mr. Martin. One possibility is that he confronted Zimmerman for follwing him. That confrontation became violent and Zimmerman shot Martin in self defense as he claims.

There are facts. Not speculation, facts:

1) Zimmerman acknowledges following Trayvon Martin.

2) Zimmerman claims Trayvon Martin tried to take his gun away from him.

3) Trayvon Martin was unarmed and would not have seen a hidden gun--only a drawn gun.

4) At that point, when someone has followed you and pulled a gun on you, you no longer are the confronter. You are protecting yourself. Especially if you are unarmed, as it has been established that Trayvon Martin was.

5) When you follow someone and pull a gun on that person who is unarmed, you can claim self-defense, but the facts do not support that claim.

6) However, in America, you are presumed innocent until you are found guilty. However, if enough facts indicated you have killed someone, you go to jail to await trial.

None of these facts are in dispute.

Zimmerman may also be a warped asshole with a gun and chased Martin down and shot him dead in cold blood for no reason at all.

Or he fell to his fears. Zimmerman sounds genuinely fearful on tape. However, the facts that he expressed do not justify a physical response.

Or maybe it was somewhere in the middle of these two possibilities.

Fact is, I don't know.

That's what a trial is for.

It's tragic, it's horrible and I feel bad for T. Martin and his family. Your 100% correct about Zimmerman deserving his day in court. But the way it works is he has to be charged. He can't be charged without proper factual evidence that ties him to a crime. I believe the authorities have been investigating this for some time now and Zimmerman's attorney has stated he will turn himself in if he is charged.

Based simply on the facts we have, we know the police are misinterpreting the Stand Your Ground Law, which is not about chasing someone and killing them. The very creators of the Bill and the Governor who signed the bill agree on this.

I don't want a guilty person to walk away anymore than I'd want an innocent person charged for a crime they didn't commit. But there is procedure to follow and Florida has laws regarding this very type of situation. Not sure I personally agree with these laws, but that doesn't matter nuch.

See above.

I'm more concerned of what may happens if it is decided that there is insufficient evidence to bring charges.

I'm more concerned about Trayvon Martin's death and justice in America in 2012.

And the one thing you & I will never agree on...41 Shots is my least favorite Bruce song of all time. But many discussions about the song have appeared on the main board, so we can leave it at that.

That's fine.

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I don't want a guilty person to walk away anymore than I'd want an innocent person charged for a crime they didn't commit. But there is procedure to follow and Florida has laws regarding this very type of situation. Not sure I personally agree with these laws, but that doesn't matter much.

This, this, a thousand times this.

Stand your ground does not mean run after someone and shoot him. It's supposed to be about self-defense.

Don't take my word for it. (1)

Don't take my word for it. (2)

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He should have his day in court but first he needs to be arrested and arraigned. As of now, he is still a free man.

In theory, I agree. But unlike you, I do not pretend to be an expert on Florida law.

I'm no expert on Florida law. But I would hope these guys are experts on the Stand Your Ground law.

1. The authors of the bill.

2. The governor who signed it into law.

It's not about scoring off of me ("unlike you, I do not pretend to be an expert on Florida law"). It's about a dead teenager. With Skittles and iced tea. Sorry if those FACTS offend anyone around here.

I'm done.

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