[cheddarmustard]

Quote

The U.S. Postal Service estimated Tuesday that it will lose $238 billion in the next decade if lawmakers, postal regulators and unions don't give the mail agency more flexibility in setting delivery schedules, price increases and labor costs.

Estimates also predict that letter carriers will deliver 150 billion pieces of mail in 2020, a drop of about 26 billion pieces from last year. Postmaster General John E. Potter plans to press lawmakers and the Postal Regulatory Commission in the coming weeks to eliminate Saturday mail deliveries and allow the mail agency to raise prices beyond the rate of inflation, if necessary.

"We intend to be around for decades and centuries to come," Potter told a meeting of regulators, congressional staffers and major mail customers Tuesday. "These are the first steps that are necessary to make sure that that occurs."

Although public polling suggests that a majority of Americans support cutting Saturday service to save money, lawmakers and union leaders signaled Tuesday that they will not rubber-stamp the move. LINK

Thoughts?

[Patched Tube]

No problem from where I sit; Saturday mail is mostly junk. As long as the USPS has the requirement to deliver the same product anywhere in the US at the same price their business model is going to be untenable on some fundamental level. Add in the fact that every congressmen raises the roof at the the thought that a postal facility, no matter how small, in their district might be closed... lets just say I'm suprised that they aren't losing more money. I actually feel sorry for the people tasked with managing the post office: they can't win, they can't break even, and they can't get out of the game (apologies to thermodynamicists everywhere).

The U.S.P.S serves an important function - and the more rural and isolated you are from the big urban confabs a person is the more important they are. Personally, if they shut down tommorow I would probably not notice the difference after a month or so. On the other hand... if I lived up in Alaska or in Moosecolon Montana and had to actually pay FedEx what it REALLY costs to get me a letter or package I'd notice the difference pretty damned quickly.

On the behalf of my fellow citizens and because they are right up the street I hope the USPS lives on. On the other hand its obvious and has been obvious that a cut in service and/or a rate hike has been coming for a long time. We can either just right them a check to cover the difference in reciepts and expenses or we can let them cut expenses and/or raise revenues. If we take that as a "given", personally, its to my overall advantage that they cut service and raise rates.

[riverdude2]

I don't know about the US Mail but here in the UK, so called modernisation and rationalisation has considerably worsened the service. It seems to me that as soon as new improved methods are employed, the service gets worse. We do have a Saturday delivery here and one delivery on weekdays. What I cannot understand here is that we seem to get a different postman each day. They don't know the route and don't get to know their customers, so I can't see how that is more efficient than the old system of the same regular postman.

[cheddarmustard]

Patched Tube, on 03 March 2010 - 08:20 AM, said:

No problem from where I sit; Saturday mail is mostly junk. As long as the USPS has the requirement to deliver the same product anywhere in the US at the same price their business model is going to be untenable on some fundamental level. Add in the fact that every congressmen raises the roof at the the thought that a postal facility, no matter how small, in their district might be closed... lets just say I'm suprised that they aren't losing more money. I actually feel sorry for the people tasked with managing the post office: they can't win, they can't break even, and they can't get out of the game (apologies to thermodynamicists everywhere).

The U.S.P.S serves an important function - and the more rural and isolated you are from the big urban confabs a person is the more important they are. Personally, if they shut down tommorow I would probably not notice the difference after a month or so. On the other hand... if I lived up in Alaska or in Moosecolon Montana and had to actually pay FedEx what it REALLY costs to get me a letter or package I'd notice the difference pretty damned quickly.

On the behalf of my fellow citizens and because they are right up the street I hope the USPS lives on. On the other hand its obvious and has been obvious that a cut in service and/or a rate hike has been coming for a long time. We can either just right them a check to cover the difference in reciepts and expenses or we can let them cut expenses and/or raise revenues. If we take that as a "given", personally, its to my overall advantage that they cut service and raise rates.

IMO, when someone moves to Moosecolon, they should be aware that they will have to make certain sacrifices in exchange for their often much lower cost of living. They most likely won't have access to public water, public sewers, etc., and may have to drive an hour or more to the nearest food market or doctor. I don't think these people are necessarily entitled to mail delivery 6 (or 5) times a week at the same rate as the rest of us.

I agree wholeheartedly that service should be cut and rates should be raised. If the USPS is going to be guaranteed a monopoly on first-class mail by the government, it should at least be able to break even.

[THUE]

It really does not matter what day of the week the bills I cant pay come.

[rtb]

cheddarmustard, on 03 March 2010 - 07:01 AM, said:

Thoughts?

It doesn't get to be any more of a "no brainer" than this. My question is why wasn't it done years ago?

Well, at least the realization that we are flat fucking broke is starting to sink in.

[Magnus]

riverdude2, on 03 March 2010 - 07:20 AM, said:

I don't know about the US Mail but here in the UK, so called modernisation and rationalisation has considerably worsened the service. It seems to me that as soon as new improved methods are employed, the service gets worse. We do have a Saturday delivery here and one delivery on weekdays. What I cannot understand here is that we seem to get a different postman each day. They don't know the route and don't get to know their customers, so I can't see how that is more efficient than the old system of the same regular postman.

Are you saying that post only comes twice a week in the UK now? Or does it depend on where you live?

I could deal with post not coming on weekends, but I don't know if I think that everyone,no matter where they live, should be entitled to the same service for the same price. And it would be highly inconvenient for many people if post offices also closed on Saturdays. I hope they aren't considering that.

[New York City Serenade]

cheddarmustard, on 03 March 2010 - 06:01 AM, said:

Thoughts?

I am going to go just a bit off topic here, but hang w/ me. The post office is losing money... the sad part of this is that it's their own fault. I worked for them as a carrier for over 12 years and the things they do internally are so mind-blowing that it's beyond ridiculous. The station that I was at for a long period was a huge station... delivering to five zip codes we had over 70 routes. Once a year they would inspect our routes... this meant having someone follow you around from the moment you clock in until the moment you clock out. They count your mail, mark down how many steps you take per minute, time your restroom breaks, as well as a plethora of other areas that are counted.

The last three years I was at this station management didn't like the outcome of the inspections... they wanted to get rid of several routes, meaning more work for everyone. A typical inspection would cost them over $30,000 dollars. So what they did was the normal inspection, then a few months later they would return for another inspection. The results were the same each time, yet they would routinely throw away $30,000 ever year just inspecting our station. Now... mulitply that over all the stations across the USA.

Here's another thing they do that takes time and ultimately wastes money; they force the carriers to carry multiple bundles of mail. It used to be that all the mail was cased in the morning and when we delivered it we had one bundle of mail. To break this down a typical route might have 20 divisions. A division is a block... like the 4400 block of Jones Street. When we would deliver that block we would have all the mail together as one bundle. Magazines were rolled, with the mail for that house inside the magazine.

Having one bundle means A: you can walk faster, B: you can walk safer, C: you have a free hand to catch yourself if you slip or trip on something, D: you have a free hand to ward off any stray dogs that feel like attacking you.

Several years ago the post office came up with DPS. It stands for Delivery Point Sequence. What it does is put your letter mail in order from the start of your route to the end. It saves a ton of casing time, which is nice. However, management refuses to allow carriers to case this sequenced mail in with the regularly cased mail, meaning you now have two bundles of mail. Letters and flats {magazines}. So now, when you are on the street you are juggling the mail, one bundle to the next, trying to get everything in order to drop in the next mail box. On certain days, like days w/ ads, we would then be caring three bundles of mail.

Several problems arose... accidents increased, dog bites increased and... most importantly to the customer, delayed mail increased. Why, you ask? Because their DPS program is flawed. I would routinely get 100 or more letters everyday in my DPS that went to other routes. Since they won't let the carriers case that mail or even go through it until they are on the street, all that mail gets taken back to the station for delivery the next day. For a service that prides itself on punctual delivery, DPS made a mockery of it.

The simple solution is to allow the carriers to case that stuff in. No more delayed mail, accidents and dog bites would go down, etc... but management refuses to allow this. For what it's worth casing DPS in takes only about 20 minutes as it is already in sequence. You get the benefit of NOT delaying mail and making the job safer for everyone. But of course, management isn't interested in that.

And this is another massive problem at the post office; management. In our station alone we had more than 15 managers and over 300 supervisors in a 10 year period. Our station had, typically, one manager and another 3 to 5 supervisors. That's four to six people doing the job that two could have done. So why the excess management? Because, you see, they believe they have to keep an eye on everyone. Nobody can be trusted. So they pay people $50,000 a year to stand around doing... nothing. They watch you. When you are delivering the mail they will park a block away and spy on you. Carriers are adults w/ families who value their jobs and take great pride in the confidence the public has in them getting their mail delivered safely and securely. Yet management treats them like little kids.

Those of you who have problems with your mail being delivered timely, I can assure you it is because management has made some stupid decision, not because your carrier isn't any good. Working there was like banging your head against a wall, because the post office will find the hardest and slowest way to do something and then force that way on everyone. The post office could save millions of dollars every year if they allowed the mail to be delivered in the best, most efficient way and if they cut management down by 70% or greater.

John Potter is a joke of a Postmaster. The postal service has done nothing in the way of customer relations since the Internet age took off and now they look around trying to blame everyone but themselves for their stupidity. I apologize for the length of this post and I know that if you have never worked at the post office you simply cannot fathom they idiotic things they do, but know this; they are to blame for their loss of revenue. And their losses could be completely done away with if they only ran things in an efficient way. They refuse to learn from their many mistakes and their losses continue.

[cheddarmustard]

New York City Serenade, on 03 March 2010 - 12:12 PM, said:

I apologize for the length of this post and I know that if you have never worked at the post office you simply cannot fathom they idiotic things they do, but know this; they are to blame for their loss of revenue. And their losses could be completely done away with if they only ran things in an efficient way. They refuse to learn from their many mistakes and their losses continue.

No apology necessary - that was a very informative read.

Do you think that the absence of competition (as mandated by law) contributes to this lack of desire for efficiency?

[misadventure]

Thanks for the insider info, NYCS. The two-three bundles sounds like a nightmare, as does the excess of management.

[Kay]

Magnus, on 03 March 2010 - 04:02 PM, said:

I could deal with post not coming on weekends

Me too especially because post never comes on weekends across the border. Saturday is the day for solicitors to come out full force.

[Magnus]

New York City Serenade, on 03 March 2010 - 11:12 AM, said:

cheddarmustard, on 03 March 2010 - 06:01 AM, said:

Thoughts?

I am going to go just a bit off topic here, but hang w/ me. The post office is losing money... the sad part of this is that it's their own fault. I worked for them as a carrier for over 12 years and the things they do internally are so mind-blowing that it's beyond ridiculous. The station that I was at for a long period was a huge station... delivering to five zip codes we had over 70 routes. Once a year they would inspect our routes... this meant having someone follow you around from the moment you clock in until the moment you clock out. They count your mail, mark down how many steps you take per minute, time your restroom breaks, as well as a plethora of other areas that are counted.

The last three years I was at this station management didn't like the outcome of the inspections... they wanted to get rid of several routes, meaning more work for everyone. A typical inspection would cost them over $30,000 dollars. So what they did was the normal inspection, then a few months later they would return for another inspection. The results were the same each time, yet they would routinely throw away $30,000 ever year just inspecting our station. Now... mulitply that over all the stations across the USA.

Here's another thing they do that takes time and ultimately wastes money; they force the carriers to carry multiple bundles of mail. It used to be that all the mail was cased in the morning and when we delivered it we had one bundle of mail. To break this down a typical route might have 20 divisions. A division is a block... like the 4400 block of Jones Street. When we would deliver that block we would have all the mail together as one bundle. Magazines were rolled, with the mail for that house inside the magazine.

Having one bundle means A: you can walk faster, B: you can walk safer, C: you have a free hand to catch yourself if you slip or trip on something, D: you have a free hand to ward off any stray dogs that feel like attacking you.

Several years ago the post office came up with DPS. It stands for Delivery Point Sequence. What it does is put your letter mail in order from the start of your route to the end. It saves a ton of casing time, which is nice. However, management refuses to allow carriers to case this sequenced mail in with the regularly cased mail, meaning you now have two bundles of mail. Letters and flats {magazines}. So now, when you are on the street you are juggling the mail, one bundle to the next, trying to get everything in order to drop in the next mail box. On certain days, like days w/ ads, we would then be caring three bundles of mail.

Several problems arose... accidents increased, dog bites increased and... most importantly to the customer, delayed mail increased. Why, you ask? Because their DPS program is flawed. I would routinely get 100 or more letters everyday in my DPS that went to other routes. Since they won't let the carriers case that mail or even go through it until they are on the street, all that mail gets taken back to the station for delivery the next day. For a service that prides itself on punctual delivery, DPS made a mockery of it.

The simple solution is to allow the carriers to case that stuff in. No more delayed mail, accidents and dog bites would go down, etc... but management refuses to allow this. For what it's worth casing DPS in takes only about 20 minutes as it is already in sequence. You get the benefit of NOT delaying mail and making the job safer for everyone. But of course, management isn't interested in that.

And this is another massive problem at the post office; management. In our station alone we had more than 15 managers and over 300 supervisors in a 10 year period. Our station had, typically, one manager and another 3 to 5 supervisors. That's four to six people doing the job that two could have done. So why the excess management? Because, you see, they believe they have to keep an eye on everyone. Nobody can be trusted. So they pay people $50,000 a year to stand around doing... nothing. They watch you. When you are delivering the mail they will park a block away and spy on you. Carriers are adults w/ families who value their jobs and take great pride in the confidence the public has in them getting their mail delivered safely and securely. Yet management treats them like little kids.

Those of you who have problems with your mail being delivered timely, I can assure you it is because management has made some stupid decision, not because your carrier isn't any good. Working there was like banging your head against a wall, because the post office will find the hardest and slowest way to do something and then force that way on everyone. The post office could save millions of dollars every year if they allowed the mail to be delivered in the best, most efficient way and if they cut management down by 70% or greater.

John Potter is a joke of a Postmaster. The postal service has done nothing in the way of customer relations since the Internet age took off and now they look around trying to blame everyone but themselves for their stupidity. I apologize for the length of this post and I know that if you have never worked at the post office you simply cannot fathom they idiotic things they do, but know this; they are to blame for their loss of revenue. And their losses could be completely done away with if they only ran things in an efficient way. They refuse to learn from their many mistakes and their losses continue.

Have you considered sending a letter or email with your observations to someone who has some influence to make decisions? Do postal workers have a union? Surely if things are as bad you say, then lots of postal workers have similar complaints to yours.

[New York City Serenade]

Magnus, on 03 March 2010 - 10:38 AM, said:

Have you considered sending a letter or email with your observations to someone who has some influence to make decisions? Do postal workers have a union? Surely if things are as bad you say, then lots of postal workers have similar complaints to yours.

Believe me, everything that can be tried, has. Yes, the postal carriers have a Union, and it is a pretty strong Union. Carriers are paid very well. The problem comes directly from postal management, and in that I mean the Postmaster and his cronies. Their management ways are at least 150 years out of date. They do not believe in the customer. Bottom line. Several years ago we had a 'meeting' with a postal management person who encouraged us {carriers} to talk to our customers about their parcel deliveries. This would have been during the brief time that UPS was on strike. Many of us have/had businesses as customers and businesses typically ship parcels a lot.

There were several carriers who went out of their way to speak to the customer about our rates {cheaper than UPS} and the fact that we deliver on Saturday {UPS doesn't} and many of us were in the process of securing good deals that would have increased revenue for our station by $10,000 or more per month. How did management {our station} react? They tried to enforce discipline on the carriers for "time-wasting practices"... ie; not delivering mail and when the customers called the station to get accounts set up they were told, by our manager and supervisors, that we would only deliver five parcels per day.

As absurd as that sounds that is the God's-honest truth. They literally threw away business. When our steward addressed this and asked them why... their response was that the post office didn't want to deal with parcels. See, the sad thing is, if the post office wanted to deliver parcels on a full time basis, there would be no UPS. UPS exists because the post office {management} is lazy.

None of the carriers were getting anything out of it... no commission, no bonus, no pay increase. We were simply trying to help our business out when the competition was on strike, and management said... no thanks.

What's really sad is the stuff I have shared w/ you here is about 1% of the problem. I was reminded, after I hit submit post, of an incident several years ago where managers were deleting OT from employees time cards. Ultimately they were caught and had to pay out over a quarter million dollars in back pay. The manager and supervisors who were caught... they were promoted.

This... is how the Post Office runs their business.

[New York City Serenade]

cheddarmustard, on 03 March 2010 - 10:22 AM, said:

No apology necessary - that was a very informative read.

Do you think that the absence of competition (as mandated by law) contributes to this lack of desire for efficiency?

Obviously competition makes everyone perform better, but if you read my post above, about the competition w/ UPS for parcels, the post office has a very lackadaisical attitude towards it. Their problems are their own and could have so easily been avoided.

I also just received an email from the Union President concerning yesterday's news. I will share that here. If you take the time to read this you may feel differently about not having Saturday delivery.

Letter From Union -

Yesterday Postmaster General Jack Potter released a seven-point "action plan for the future" at a conference in Washington, DC. The plan, entitled Ensuring a Viable Postal Service for America, was put together by the Postal Service with the assistance of two consulting companies, the Boston Consulting Group (BCG) and McKinsey and Company. BCG produced a forecast of future mail volume that predicts a continued decline from 177 billion pieces in 2009 to 150 billion pieces in 2020 while McKinsey helped the USPS analyze various business strategies and develop its plan.

Many of the ideas outlined in the action plan -- such as repealing the retiree health prefunding requirement by fixing the USPS's overfunding of CSRS pensions and liberating the Postal Service to offer new products and to price their existing ones more flexibly -- are ones that NALC embraces. Unfortunately, the plan also endorses the elimination of Saturday mail delivery that NALC believes is unnecessary and counterproductive. Reducing the scope and quality of service will not restore the Postal Service to health -- it is likely to drive mailers away and therefore worsen, not improve the Postal Service's bottom line. Too many American businesses such as those that distribute mail order prescription drugs, DVDs and weekly magazines rely on six-day delivery. The plan also threatens to eliminate 25,000 letter carrier jobs, though the PMG insists that the job cuts could be achieved through attrition.

After the report came out, I issued a press release and engaged the news media to defend universal, six-day delivery and the interests of letter carriers.

It is deeply disturbing that the Postal Service appears to be committed to eliminating Saturday service, though Congress would have to approve such a change. NALC will fiercely resist this proposal on Copitol Hill. In this effort, I will need the help of activists like you. Later this month, we will hold our annual state legislative conference in Washington to map out our strategy.

Other parts of the Postal Service's plan -- concerning "workforce flexibility" -- will require the agreement of the NALC and the other postal unions at the bargaining table. We fully expect to engage with the Postal Service in the months and years ahead to find win-win solutions through negotiations. We have proven over the past 18 months that we are capable of adapting and responding to the crisis. But we will insist on protecting good quality jobs and Congress must do its part to help stabilize the Postal Service by addressing the prefunding issue.

On March 24, the House Sub-Committee on the Federal Workforce, the Postal Service and the District of Columbia will hold a hearing on the Office of Inspector General's report in January on the postal pension surplus. If correctly calculated and transferred to the Postal Service Retiree Health Fund, the surplus postal funds in the CSRS could significantly reduce or eliminate the prefunding payments altogether.

NALC is working around the clock with allies in Congress and in the Obama administration to address the financial crisis facing the USPS. See the website and the NALC's publications for more details on the USPS plan and the union's views on its components.

In solidarity,
Fredric V. Rolando
President

[Patched Tube]

I gather the "take away" is that, at least in this segment of the population, nobody cares much one way or the other about Saturday delivery.

Motion carried...

[Daskill]

Centuries to come? That's a bit optimistic isn't it?

[Wasted in the heat]

Quote

John Potter is a joke of a Postmaster.

In addition to being a postmaster, I'm a general. And we both know, it's the job of a general to, by God, get things done.

[New York City Serenade]

Patched Tube, on 03 March 2010 - 03:13 PM, said:

I gather the "take away" is that, at least in this segment of the population, nobody cares much one way or the other about Saturday delivery.

Motion carried...

It's kind of like the saying... You don't miss your water, until your well runs dry... If you understand the way mail is delayed because of the system that postal management insists on using, then ponder this... you are expecting an important document, could be a check, could be something needed for your business, whatever, and you were told it was mailed on Wednesday, meaning you should get it by Friday. Only it gets delayed because of the system that is in place and now, instead of receiving that mail on Saturday, you will have to wait until Monday. What if Monday is a Holiday?

See the point? Five day delivery will hurt a lot of people and sadly, most won't see it or understand it until it affects them.

[PrettyRedRose]

So if it's a check you don't get on Friday arrives Saturday, the banks won't clear it til midnight Monday...same as if you got it and deposited it Monday (and the kind of checks that people HAVE to have - like SS or unemployment for example - most often are not mailed anyway). If there's a Monday holiday, it still doesn't matter if you get the check Saturday...the banks will be closed thru Monday too. If it's a contract you don't get Saturday, the contract issuing company prolly ain't open then anyway. When you get the contract on Monday instead, they will be open.

This is a non-issue.

[New York City Serenade]

PrettyRedRose, on 03 March 2010 - 04:17 PM, said:

So if it's a check you don't get on Friday arrives Saturday, the banks won't clear it til midnight Monday...same as if you got it and deposited it Monday (and the kind of checks that people HAVE to have - like SS or unemployment for example - most often are not mailed anyway). If there's a Monday holiday, it still doesn't matter if you get the checkSaturday...the banks will be closed thru Monday too. If it's a contract you don't get Saturday, the contract issuing company prolly ain't open then anyway. When you get the contract on Monday instead, they will be open.

This is a non-issue.

Actually, I used to deliver a lot of SS checks on the 1st and 3rd of the month. You would be amazed at how many people don't have bank accounts. The point I was trying to make is that there are a lot of things that are time sensitive and an extra day, or two, or three, is going to come into play and it will affect people. Another issue is stuff that you mail out... maybe you just didn't have time during the week and you take care of it on Saturday, now... that will either have to wait or you can drive to your nearest postal processing plant... however far that may be, to get your mail out in a timely manner.

I know it sounds like a non-issue to you but believe me, going from six days to five days is not good business for the postal service and it certainly doesn't benefit the customer. Time will tell...

[NikitaC]

I wouldn't mind losing a day in the week. I don't like the idea of having 2 days of no mail in a row.

[PrettyRedRose]

I guess you could go to the check cashing place. But Saturday to Monday? I just don't see how the world ends with a two day delay. If your rent was due Friday, check didn't arrive you're with the grace period to pay Monday. The most time sensitive thing I mail is taxes...if the 15th or 20th is a Saturday, and Monday is a holiday, the due date is Tuesday. If you have a bill due on Saturday and there's no Saturday delivery, odds are the company is closed anyway and they can't do anything with the check any more than an individual could even if they did get it Saturday. Really this is making a mountain out of a molehill. For the relatively few instances of true inconveniences (rather than minor annoyance), the savings - tens of millions a year - more than offsets that. And if it really IS absolutely critical it arrive no later than Saturday do a Friday Fedex or Friday USPS Express Mail. People will adjust...there used to be twice daily delivery. We got over that, no damage done.

[PrettyRedRose]

BTW, NYCS, welcome to the forum. You've added alot of insight already, I hope you'll stick around.

[Patched Tube]

PrettyRedRose, on 03 March 2010 - 05:17 PM, said:

So if it's a check you don't get on Friday arrives Saturday, the banks won't clear it til midnight Monday...same as if you got it and deposited it Monday (and the kind of checks that people HAVE to have - like SS or unemployment for example - most often are not mailed anyway). If there's a Monday holiday, it still doesn't matter if you get the check Saturday...the banks will be closed thru Monday too. If it's a contract you don't get Saturday, the contract issuing company prolly ain't open then anyway. When you get the contract on Monday instead, they will be open.

This is a non-issue.

Was kind of thinking the same thing myself.

[New York City Serenade]

PrettyRedRose, on 03 March 2010 - 04:54 PM, said:

BTW, NYCS, welcome to the forum. You've added alot of insight already, I hope you'll stick around.

Thanks PrettyRedRose. I've been a fan of Bruce since 1978 and been a fan of Little Steven since his solo career began w/ Men Without Women, so yes... I think I'll hang around. It's good to meet other Springsteen fans and get others perspectives on songs, albums and the like.

With regards to the topic at hand, the savings you mention is grossly over-exaggerated by the Postmaster. But hey, it's what he does best. I won't go into detail on it, but there won't be the savings he's talking about. Quite the contrary, really.