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Jimmy James

The Man City Thread: The Pep Years

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I don't think you can get rid of VAR now. It's too late. What the EPL or English football as a whole should do is what they did to improve their coaching, tactics and youth development: Look how they do it in Spain.

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Sad thing is you knew this wasn't gonna work and that is was gonna ruin the game we all love so much, yet if you dared to criticize the idea of VAR you were shut down by a lot of people. Technology is great! But only in the right context. Hawk-eye, goal-line technology: fantastic stuff! But with VAR there will always be too much room for interpretation for it to work. One week they use VAR for something, one week later they don't use it for an identical situation. If your team scores a goal you can't really celebrate like you used to do because there might be a VAR check and they might rule out the goal. It's very frustrating for both players and fans and it ruins the game. I get that they tried it and that's good, you should always give technology a chance, but it clearly doesn't work. Get rid and go back to how it was! No shame in that. You can always try it again in a couple of years when you have a clear set of rules with no room for interpretation. I mean I feel like the definition of clear error changes every week. If they're gonna keep working with VAR, which they will, I'd like to hear the reasoning behind those decisions. Give us live audio of the refs and VAR officials. Be transparant! High As Hope mentioned appeals, I'm glad that I see this mentioned here because I think it's a good idea. But even then, aren't we making this waaaaay too complicated?

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@Jimmy James

raheem the diver
dropped by england after causing a fracas in a private team area at England’s training area with a Liverpool player believed to be joe gomez

was it a food fight. Did joe steal a sticky bun and var didn’t intervene

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The guy in charge of VAR has given it 7 out of 10 in it's use so far (though I'm sure he's the only person that would mark it that high)it would be refreshing if he'd come out & admitted it was a screw up,in theory the ref having a mic like in rugby is a sensible idea so fans watching know what's happening,unfortunately the practical is that the language used by the players would be picked up on the mic & end up with all kinds of obscenities being heard on live TV so until players learn words that don't begin with f then that isn't going to happen.

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10 hours ago, Perisic said:

Sad thing is you knew this wasn't gonna work and that is was gonna ruin the game we all love so much, yet if you dared to criticize the idea of VAR you were shut down by a lot of people. Technology is great! But only in the right context. Hawk-eye, goal-line technology: fantastic stuff! But with VAR there will always be too much room for interpretation for it to work. One week they use VAR for something, one week later they don't use it for an identical situation. If your team scores a goal you can't really celebrate like you used to do because there might be a VAR check and they might rule out the goal. It's very frustrating for both players and fans and it ruins the game. I get that they tried it and that's good, you should always give technology a chance, but it clearly doesn't work. Get rid and go back to how it was! No shame in that. You can always try it again in a couple of years when you have a clear set of rules with no room for interpretation. I mean I feel like the definition of clear error changes every week. If they're gonna keep working with VAR, which they will, I'd like to hear the reasoning behind those decisions. Give us live audio of the refs and VAR officials. Be transparant! High As Hope mentioned appeals, I'm glad that I see this mentioned here because I think it's a good idea. But even then, aren't we making this waaaaay too complicated?

I guess a big problem is that many had the unreasonable expectation that VAR would work perfectly from the get go. There sure are arguments against it, but I have been watching a few Europa League matches lately (no VAR there) and many of them have been decided by horrible refereeing decisions. With VAR the standings would look a whole lot different.

I just don't understand the mindset, that because VAR doesn't work yet or the refs don't know how to handle it yet, it should be scraped and we should go back to having countless wrong decisions influence games and competitions. This summer there was a statistic in Spain that wrong decisions have been drastically reduced since the introduction of VAR.

I also don't buy the argument about goal celebrations. Sure, sometimes you might be cautious celebrating, but the vast majority of goals still stand. People will still celebrate. And I have seen many matches, where VAR added to the excitment.

The competitive nature, the social and economic impact of the game demand officiating that is as flawless as possible. The human eye alone is not capable of that. Years and years of horrible decisions have proven that. The solution is not to scrape VAR, but to make it better.

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3 hours ago, High As Hope said:

The guy in charge of VAR has given it 7 out of 10 in it's use so far (though I'm sure he's the only person that would mark it that high)it would be refreshing if he'd come out & admitted it was a screw up,in theory the ref having a mic like in rugby is a sensible idea so fans watching know what's happening,unfortunately the practical is that the language used by the players would be picked up on the mic & end up with all kinds of obscenities being heard on live TV so until players learn words that don't begin with f then that isn't going to happen.

I read that and immediately thought of the famous president bush quote after the head of fema completely messed up the reaction to Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans .... you,re doing a hell of a job brownie...

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7 hours ago, High As Hope said:

The guy in charge of VAR has given it 7 out of 10 in it's use so far (though I'm sure he's the only person that would mark it that high)it would be refreshing if he'd come out & admitted it was a screw up,in theory the ref having a mic like in rugby is a sensible idea so fans watching know what's happening,unfortunately the practical is that the language used by the players would be picked up on the mic & end up with all kinds of obscenities being heard on live TV so until players learn words that don't begin with f then that isn't going to happen.

Maybe he's using an inverted scale where "1" is perfect and "10" is the Titanic.  

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i thought var was to be used to obliterate major mistakes, wasnt "clear and obvious" the phrase they use, not if someone is offside by a nose etc, should be feet only and what happened to give the benefit of doubt to the attacking side, as for the handball if the ball is moving at even only 30mph it travels about 40 feet per second so how can you give a handball from a ball hit from a few feet away. its not the var that is the problem iit is interpretation of the rules

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1 hour ago, stevie54uk said:

i thought var was to be used to obliterate major mistakes, wasnt "clear and obvious" the phrase they use, not if someone is offside by a nose etc, should be feet only and what happened to give the benefit of doubt to the attacking side, as for the handball if the ball is moving at even only 30mph it travels about 40 feet per second so how can you give a handball from a ball hit from a few feet away. its not the var that is the problem iit is interpretation of the rules

It's both I think. @LeoGetztalked about (to paraphrase) "flawless officiating" and fans have always whinged about refereeing decisions and more recently "why don't we use technology...". Well we are, and this is where we've landed.

In terms of the laws, I agree to a point - they've been over-interpreted to the extent that the current book of Laws and instructions / interpretations runs to 144 pages.

Handball has always been subjective and the "arms in an usual position" has been round for years. So we're essentially asking another referee to second guess why the first one made the decision he did. For me, if I was unsighted, I'd have been be happy to review, but if I explicitly made a deliberate / accidental decision, I'm the sole arbiter of fact. Even when I'm wrong :D.

Offside was fine until this "part of the body with which the ball can be played" interpretation was invented. Until then the assistant simply went off torso (whose shirt is closer to the goal!) - in fact even after it was invented we still did, because there's no realistic way in real time to analyse whether Player A's big toe is closer to the goal line than player B's nipple.

But TV micro analysis led to people - managers, players, pundits, fans - drawing lines on screens and complaining about decisions where inches were involved, with the outcome that we now do the same in real-time. So frankly they've got what they asked for and can suck it up!

Alternatively, we could do what most refs have been saying for 15-20 years. Give us functioning goal-line technology and leave the rest to us, accepting we'll make mistakes (and take the resulting flak) - but fewer than the average player in the course of a season.

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24 minutes ago, thomam said:

It's both I think. @LeoGetztalked about (to paraphrase) "flawless officiating" and fans have always whinged about refereeing decisions and more recently "why don't we use technology...". Well we are, and this is where we've landed.

In terms of the laws, I agree to a point - they've been over-interpreted to the extent that the current book of Laws and instructions / interpretations runs to 144 pages.

Handball has always been subjective and the "arms in an usual position" has been round for years. So we're essentially asking another referee to second guess why the first one made the decision he did. For me, if I was unsighted, I'd have been be happy to review, but if I explicitly made a deliberate / accidental decision, I'm the sole arbiter of fact. Even when I'm wrong :D.

Offside was fine until this "part of the body with which the ball can be played" interpretation was invented. Until then the assistant simply went off torso (whose shirt is closer to the goal!) - in fact even after it was invented we still did, because there's no realistic way in real time to analyse whether Player A's big toe is closer to the goal line than player B's nipple.

But TV micro analysis led to people - managers, players, pundits, fans - drawing lines on screens and complaining about decisions where inches were involved, with the outcome that we now do the same in real-time. So frankly they've got what they asked for and can suck it up!

Alternatively, we could do what most refs have been saying for 15-20 years. Give us functioning goal-line technology and leave the rest to us, accepting we'll make mistakes (and take the resulting flak) - but fewer than the average player in the course of a season.

"This is where we've landed"

True, but it's where the EPL landed. As I have said, in Spain, and also in Italy, the Netherlands and the CL as far as I can tell, it works pretty good. So it's not the technology, it's the people applying it. So don't change or scrape the technology, change the people operating it. This is obviously an England-problem, not a VAR-problem.

I agree about the handball rule. I guess by now nobody really understands it anymore. But again, that has nothing to do with VAR itself. It's (like usually) the human element that's failing.

Same with the "toe that's offside". Because in a case like this one would also have to see if the video was stopped at the right time. Did they freeze the picture right at the moment the ball was played or a fraction of a second too early or too late. Again, the problem here is how VAR is applied, not VAR itself. Unless you can say with 100% certainty that the refs decision was wrong, the decision should stand. It's pretty easy actually. Don't know why the EPL can't get a handle on that.

 

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42 minutes ago, Perisic said:

Surely not? 

Surely not, What? 

I filed a complaint with a Trade Union here in town on Tuesday, they told me to shove it up my ass. Pretty much what the FA will do here. 

The FA overturned Son's Red card a week or so ago, did they replay the last 20 minutes Spurs played with 10? No. 

I don't care if the VAR goes with or against the club I support, it needs to go. That TTA hand ball was not in my book. If City would have just played in lieu of complaining about it maybe things could have been different. 

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respect to Sterling for how he's dealing with the fallout

 

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2 hours ago, JimCT said:

respect to Sterling for how he's dealing with the fallout

 

True, but not so much for carrying his grudge into the English camp like that.

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On 11/11/2019 at 5:12 AM, dr winston oboogie said:

Only one thing neds to be said here.....John "The Donkey" Stones....

TBF, without his clearance off the line last year City ends 2d and LFC wins the PL ;) 

 

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17 hours ago, JimCT said:

TBF, without his clearance off the line last year City ends 2d and LFC wins the PL ;) 

 

I suppose so, but everyone deserves an accident now and again.;)

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3 hours ago, dr winston oboogie said:

I suppose so, but everyone deserves an accident now and again.;)

"Even a blind pig finds an acorn occasionally"

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Haven't heard anything from my side this week, don't know if that is good or bad. Usually my FB feed would be filled with happy/playing faces from the club. But haven't seen any at all. Maybe they will start filling in here soon.  

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20 hours ago, Jimmy James said:

Haven't heard anything from my side this week, don't know if that is good or bad. Usually my FB feed would be filled with happy/playing faces from the club. But haven't seen any at all. Maybe they will start filling in here soon.  

I'm a bit worried about this weekends match.  They should win but coming off the break funny things happen.

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Pinball goal For man city... two huge deflections on the pass to de bruyne followed by another big deflection on the shot

 

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Screams of joy from St. Louis as pep runs out of  fit players and has to bring Phil Foden on

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Honestly that ruled out Sterling goal was bullshit. Deserved those 3 points, they're still in it.

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6 hours ago, Perisic said:

Honestly that ruled out Sterling goal was bullshit. Deserved those 3 points, they're still in it.

You know my wife was in the kitchen while I was watching the match, and she said to me, why aren't you going crazy after the goals any more. I had told her you have wait for the replay before it confirm. She said that's stupid. 

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7 hours ago, Jimmy James said:

You know my wife was in the kitchen while I was watching the match, and she said to me, why aren't you going crazy after the goals any more. I had told her you have wait for the replay before it confirm. She said that's stupid. 

Linesman falsely ruled Barças winning goal offside yesterday. My wife said, why aren't you upset like you used to be? I said I don't have to be, because VAR will overturn the decision and the goal will count. And it did. :-)

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