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59 minutes ago, rosiejaneymary said:

Sorry, I don’t agree with this at all.   I’ve no idea what he will decide as far as performing these songs on any future tour; but these songs, IMO most certainly do have a place for an audience.  

Well, I agree with you, that these songs have a place for an audience, but then I would say: outside the songs. They do not have that place in them where we, as a audience, is represented by one figure or other. This place is were the audience and the poet meets, and the existence of this place is what makes Springsteens relation to his audience so extraordinary. So what kind of tour would it really be? I think he realized, that it would be like going to different places with a movie - and so he made one.

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6 minutes ago, ulfhpersson said:

Well, I agree with you, that these songs have a place for an audience, but then I would say: outside the songs. They do not have that place in them where we, as a audience, is represented by on figure or other. This place is were the audience and the poet meets, and the existence of this place is what makes Springsteens relation to his audience so extraordinary. So what kind of tour would it really be? I think he realized, that it would be like going to different places with a movie - and so he made one.

I understand your position, but I still disagree. We’re represented as we always are; the listener to his story.  

Each of us relates to the stories and characters on WS as we always do; with our own personal experiences or makes you think, or allows us to feel something deep inside or simply feeling joy (like with Sleepy Joe’s).  

Just as all of his work has done for decades.  

There are several possibilities as to why he had decided not to tour behind this album.  But IMO his thinking this album wouldn’t work in front of a live audience isn’t one of them.  

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12 hours ago, ulfhpersson said:

Why did not Springsteen perform his new songs on tour? Well, I think a tour centered around this new material was not really possible for an artist of Springsteens kind. The reason, as I see it, is the following. In Western Stars there is no real other. There is no Mary at the porch, no Mister in the valley. The other is lost, is a memory. The porch and the valley are boarded up, i. e. the poet and the other are only in the mind of the poet. That is:  the songs of Western Stars has no place for an audience.

i have given your post some thought.:)

when you say there is no place for an audience do you think that because the stories are too intermit - too personal aka not relatable to other people besides Bruce ?

 @ulfhpersson i ask this in friendly discusion :)

i hear this album in a very similar vein to TOL

i definatly feel some of that deep stuff going down and relate to it in a rather uncomfortable personally confrontational way

do you perhaps think along the lines of Little Steven when he told Bruce that no one cared about what he feels, on listening to ain't got you ?

have you seen the movie (i have not) and Bruce has said something for you to think that ?

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10 hours ago, ulfhpersson said:

Well, I agree with you, that these songs have a place for an audience, but then I would say: outside the songs. They do not have that place in them where we, as a audience, is represented by one figure or other. This place is were the audience and the poet meets, and the existence of this place is what makes Springsteens relation to his audience so extraordinary. So what kind of tour would it really be? I think he realized, that it would be like going to different places with a movie - and so he made one.

most of my reply is below

i tried really hard with the spelling and punctuation- i now need a cup of tea and a lie down ! 

Was the TOL tour a bit of an after thought

a record written without the band and then having the individual band members having to go up against Bruce's playing to even get to be a part of the album

a  fairly static set list and not alot of spontaneously?? 

who knows??

the river album on its aniversary tour was awsome every night and at least a little bit different to the night before 

Sign requests often seem to be less than spontaneous and often as not practiced or at least familiarised before the show

 

 

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2 hours ago, Daisey Jeep said:

hmmmmmmmmm ;)

Overall i see Bruce's live performances throughout most of his career to reflect his on going themes in his work of hope, love, faith, strength, community and work

He needs us as much as we need him

However  I find some of these values not overly abundant on WS (or TOL) - and that's certainly not ment as a criticism, mearly an observation

Remembering that a TOL song is a rear beast on a setlist ever since - well, since the TOL express !

Why is that ?

Too painful a period for everybody ?

From a man who's made a very succesful living out of exposing his haunted, pained and scared soul some material still just seems to still be out of bounds

Back to WS,  tellingly there is not a lot of 'we' on this record with is unusual  for Bruce. 'We' as opposed to 'me' or 'I' is a positive trait that he usually  shars with country music in general (i saw a study on it once)

Art is in the eye of the beholder or in this case the listener, and misery can indeed be beautiful 

I think there is a lot of loss or potential loss, regrete and pain on this record that cannot be healed 

I really feel that deep sence of loss - because sometimes I'm not picking apart every single  lyric, exploring every single possibility  - I'm just absorbing a greater feeling of a song/ an album

I don't feel a lot of hope either, certainly not in the long term, because time is running out for these particular characters, and that's something I'm just not accustomed to with our dear Mr Bruce Springsteen, despite my love and affinity for his solo releases, this time there seems to be no promised land 

That being said the music is certainly very beautiful and I would love to see it played live with an orchestra but I find it such a very intense, intermit  and personal album -( i do 99% of my Bruuuuuuuuucing alone anyway) I just could not imangine shearing the listening experience of this group of songs  accompanied by another human being

This is the ultimate album of the loan wolf and what happens to loan wolves if they don't from a pack, to be part of something more than a greater self and to look after and nurture something other than one's self  and to be looked after and nurtured in return

(I must just say one thing i'm really looking forward to with regard to the movie is seeing the hands of Bruce and Patty together at the end, I think that will hopefully give me the hope that i i feel is lacking and that I crave)

After the initial release of Western Stars the album, i have bearly posted about it in an indept analytical manner, indeed sometimes being a tad flipent,  despite the respect i give it due to the  fact i do trully  hear a  masterpiece as I certainly do with TOL 

It's because it still fucking terrifies the living daylights out of me and in all honesty I'm just not ready to even attempt to emulate it let alone think too deeply about the rather dark themes exposed on this album

Now WOAD I would, could and have, talked about (and defended) till the cows come home as i have GOTJ,

Joad, which although isolating, lacking joy and having an abundance of pain seems to me to convey  a much wider picture going on in the background than on WS and I'm defiantly not talking about cinematic landscapes !! but rather of the reasons behind the smaller, tragic little stories of society's seemingly dispensable people, themselves also dwarfed by their landscapes both figuratively and geographicly 

As @Jerseyfornia said (i have no idea which thread now :lol:) the desert definatly isnt empty and i totally agree with that, but in these  huge landscapes people and individuals  just disapair like an ant about to be picked off by a hungry lizard for lunch (that's why i beleave Joad needs to be acoustic and minimal or the stories just become overwelmed and disapair into the angry huge shadows cast by the rocks and pillars of the desert ie. Tom Morrello)

But yet in this WS album i hear  the abundant  sweeping orchestrian as a reflection of the seemingly endless expansive of the desert itself -    like a bird watching from above                 There is no boom blast of the ESB to communicate community to the audiences (mind you sleepy Joe is crying out for the ESB IMHO), but maybe WS for the most part just isn't about community

We, the listener, fan, observer, by-stander - what ever you want to call us ? are just inconspicuous bits of sand being blown away into oblivion by the desert wind just like the narrator, bit players and walk on parts of the WS stories.

If one trully listens the downtrodden characters of Joad  have a wider more obvious message to convey that the people of WS who do not appear to me to do so, their circumstances seem more personal, all be it also still possibly arising from seemingly unavoidable  past bad decisions and indiscretions caused by situations often beyound their control

The characters on TOL, Joad, WOAD still seem to be somehow connected to society, even if some only on its fringe, some with more hope in their hearts than others.

But here on WS I have the feeling its going to take a monumental shift to get our guy (the narrator) back into a pack, even just a pack of two, when its just easier to open a bottle of Jack for company. 

Bruce's characters are always flawed, like him, like us, like me, like Gary, like people in general, like life, but sometimes we can champion the flaws and celebrate the shortcomings with a beer and the ESB

But the flaws of character included in the narratives on this album are way too raw to be shaired by a band, let alone each other

In the same way i much prefer solo 'the promise' to the full band version, (which equates in that case to the kind of medication that might ease the pain, give one a bit of a high but  also fuzzies the clarity of the moment) this album has clarity like that endless cloudless blue sky over  that dramatic and harsh dessert landscape,

Our beloved  ESB might be too much of a mirage, a distant watering hole desert oasis that simply doesn't exist in this concept, there isnt any brotherhod going on in this album 

When I re-read the lyrics to this album I effortlessly hear the beautiful music in my head but in the pit of my stomach I again feel the dead weight of dread, loneliness, loss, isolation and regrete as the buzzards circle overhead

Now normally I revel in Bruce's paralyzing loneliness but this is something different, this is something more terrifying, more finite, we are on the home stretch but the winer's circle eludes us and the knacker's yard awaits

Then the party is over my friends

 

 

I think i need this next ESB record more than i realized 

Rock and roll will never die

 

 

btw i better get an A for effort with regards to my spelling and punctuation because i tried so hard i actually kind of lost the whole thing and i would have been spitting tacks if that had happened

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29 minutes ago, Daisey Jeep said:

btw i better get an A for effort with regards to my spelling and punctuation because i tried so hard i actually kind of lost the whole thing and i would have been spitting tacks if that had happened

A.

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7 hours ago, Daisey Jeep said:

btw i better get an A for effort with regards to my spelling and punctuation because i tried so hard i actually kind of lost the whole thing and i would have been spitting tacks if that had happened

I can't quote or find your original post, but what you have written at the end is really beautiful. I think Bruce feels the same about this album,  and this is perhaps why the songs won't get played live. 

This.    

"When I re-read the lyrics to this album I effortlessly hear the beautiful music in my head but in the pit of my stomach I again feel the dead weight of dread, loneliness, loss, isolation and regrete as the buzzards circle overhead

Now normally I revel in Bruce's paralyzing loneliness but this is something different, this is something more terrifying, more finite, we are on the home stretch but the winer's circle eludes us and the knacker's yard awaits

Then the party is over my friends"

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8 hours ago, Daisey Jeep said:

btw i better get an A for effort with regards to my spelling and punctuation because i tried so hard i actually kind of lost the whole thing and i would have been spitting tacks if that had happened

Daisey Jeep! So beautiful you write about Springsteens work in general and WS in special! Your text expresses most of what I think on the subjekt, but much better than I can.

I just want to add the following: Of course WS can be performed in front of a audience. But such a performance would, I think, be a connection between Springsteen and the audience of a different kind than the usual one. Nothing wrong with that, there are many different kind of places for an audience: film-, classical-, Max Raabe-audiences and so on, and none is better than the other. But I do not think that an artist of Springsteens kind would be satisfied with the kind of place for the audience, and the connection, that WS creates.

And, if I dare speculate (hey stupid, you nothing else!): perhaps is it possible to image, that WS is an expression of the poets understanding, that not to far away, he will be without that audience that made it all possible, both for him selves, and the audience.

That is, WS was thought to be his swan song.

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Not once, while listening to this album, did I think of my own mortality … or his.

The narrator is continuing his life. Let's all enjoy his/ours while the going's good, eh? :)

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15 minutes ago, ulfhpersson said:

Daisey Jeep! So beautiful you write about Springsteens work in general and WS in special! Your text expresses most of what I think on the subjekt, but much better than I can.

I just want to add the following: Of course WS can be performed in front of a audience. But such a performance would, I think, be a connection between Springsteen and the audience of a different kind than the usual one. Nothing wrong with that, there are many different kind of places for an audience: film-, classical-, Max Raabe-audiences and so on, and none is better than the other. But I do not think that an artist of Springsteens kind would be satisfied with the kind of place for the audience, and the connection, that WS creates.

And, if I dare speculate (hey stupid, you nothing else!): perhaps is it possible to image, that WS is an expression of the poets understanding, that not to far away, he will be without that audience that made it all possible, both for him selves, and the audience.

That is, WS was thought to be his swan song.

thank you @ulfhpersson

i did think long and hard about where you might be coming from and i tend to agree with you.

it will be intetesting to see how he might incorporate some of the WS songs into an ESB setlist

we are all pretty sure SleepyJoe can find a fit on E Street and i hope Bruce will surprise us with his creativity  in slotting in a few of the others because they are too good for him to just do this record and movie and then stick them back on the shelf

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18 minutes ago, Eileen said:

Not once, while listening to this album, did I think of my own mortality … or his.

The narrator is continuing his life. Let's all enjoy his/ours while the going's good, eh? :)

i agree

but in the dark and cold of winter when Gary was so sick it was not my own or Bruce's mortality i was worried about.

Gary has always got up and never slept in even when he had pneumonia years ago, but he was sleeping in till lunch time some days and not eatting and lossing so much weight and then the eye problems compounded everything, i couldn't enjoy western stars, i couldn't even play it

it was 100 times more frightening and painful as i ever found TOL and i couldn't talk about it, i had to shut myself away with my fears, i pray that is now behind us but of course now poor Melanie is sick again

But i have always seen so much of Gary reflected in Bruce's work, they are only 3 years apart in age, it drives me crazy he won't have a bar of him 

Gary even once confessed to liking the river but he was adamant there is a version out there sung with someone who doesn't have a voice like s concrete mixer

I know Bruce understands what it's like to be Gary

 

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1 hour ago, Silvia said:

I can't quote or find your original post, but what you have written at the end is really beautiful. I think Bruce feels the same about this album,  and this is perhaps why the songs won't get played live. 

This.    

"When I re-read the lyrics to this album I effortlessly hear the beautiful music in my head but in the pit of my stomach I again feel the dead weight of dread, loneliness, loss, isolation and regrete as the buzzards circle overhead

Now normally I revel in Bruce's paralyzing loneliness but this is something different, this is something more terrifying, more finite, we are on the home stretch but the winer's circle eludes us and the knacker's yard awaits

Then the party is over my friends"

thank you Sylvia, you are very kind

i killed my original post by mistake trying to fix the spelling ....lucky im such a techkno-clutz i had mistaking quoted my self so my words were saved by default

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3 hours ago, Eileen said:

Not once, while listening to this album, did I think of my own mortality … or his.

The narrator is continuing his life. Let's all enjoy his/ours while the going's good, eh? :)

Mortaltiy instantly came to mind, my own and his. That is not a bad thing. We are in our declining years, best be prepared that there is an end ahead not too far away.

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3 hours ago, Eileen said:

Not once, while listening to this album, did I think of my own mortality … or his.

The narrator is continuing his life. Let's all enjoy his/ours while the going's good, eh? :)

Well, I agree with Berlin tramps remark above. And I really think that der absolute Herr is at the center of WS. I use my own words again:

How astonishingly close (yet surprisingly distant from) Springsteen's latest heroes arenot the main character (grippingly played by Harry Dean Stanton) in John Carroll Lynch's movie LUCKY.

Close, for he too, like Springsteen's latest heroes, lives a ritualized life, a non-life in anticipation of real life. He and they are fixed by their past. They live only for and by what has been. They are for that reason alone. 

They live only horizontally. 

Distant, since he, unlike them, finally returns to life; during one of his routines, he faints and falls to the floor, and then, when he rises again, - he is enriched with the insight of his own mortality. 

Now he can relate to other people again, become part of a community.

He has experienced the verticality of life.

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I think of relationships that ended, and why. I have fond thoughts when I think of (most of) them.

Just like Bruce.

If you think that his 'love' died in MM then yes, you'll see it as a song about loss.

I don't.

@Daisey Jeep - you know how sorry I am about Gary's ill-health and what you've both gone through … and several others on here, be it themselves or their loved ones. If people feel the lyrics reflect on these feelings I hope they help.

I, personally, don't find that this album gets me thinking along those lines - other songs do, but not these ones. I see it as a relationship album - relationships lost, not though death, but just drifting apart for whatever reason. 

Excluding Smokey Joe's - I think that's his 'Rhinestone Cowboy' song … just thrown into the mix to 'brighten things up a bit.'

I'm reminded of my own mortality often. Happily, this album doesn't affect me in that way. I find it uplifting.

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4 hours ago, Eileen said:

Excluding Smokey Joe's -

Sleepy Joe should be so lucky. He's just slugging away

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20 minutes ago, berlintramp said:

Sleepy Joe should be so lucky. He's just slugging away

Ha! I usually check myself as this is how I think of the title - obviously too distracted today.

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I don't believe mortality is the direct theme of this album.

But in my imagination, these are all the stories told by an elderly man, who had fucked up, told at the end of his life.

The crux is the reminiscence. Which means nothing until you feel the end approaching.

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it is the being left alone i think that freeked me out the most 

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10 hours ago, Silvia said:

I don't believe mortality is the direct theme of this album.

But in my imagination, these are all the stories told by an elderly man, who had fucked up, told at the end of his life.

The crux is the reminiscence. Which means nothing until you feel the end approaching.

I agree the narrator is getting on a bit - but has many years in front of him still.

If you've lost dear ones at a relatively early age reminiscences start early.

I suppose I just don't associate thinking of lost loves and getting older as being near death's door. :)

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Intimations of mortality are not the same as being at death's door.

And none of us know when it will be

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I was referring to 'told at the end of his life'

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I see that I have not been too clear in my writing. So yes, Silvia, also I do not think that mortality is the direct theme of WS. But as I see it, the absent of the insight in their mortality is the real theme of WS. The heros longing for the past, that forces them to live not their own life, but the life in the crane that they think the other will approve, that repetition, that makes them work five days a week in a work that takes their life from them, just for the two night in the Café, where they say that they comes alive, but in a voice, that do not tremble of any life whatsoever - all this longing, all this repetition can go on as long as the insight of their mortality has not confronted them. But without any doubt, by what they are satisfied with, we can measure their loss. And I would say: they are not really alive. And they know it. They admit it. If we remember. The girls at the Café are not the girls out in the street, who gives our hero brilliant eyes, no they slap on their makeup and flirt the night away. Its not for real. They all live a kind of non-life. In the world under WS, nothing will change, until the absolute Master enters there scene.

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1 hour ago, nfbandon said:

I don't see any discussion of the film version of the song.

  What does everyone think?

Sarcasm...?

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