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1 hour ago, SoulBoogieAlex said:

My point is that proof is in the White House. If some form of racism wasn't a factor, he wouldn't be president. To me it is that plain.

So, do you believe most Americans were serial adulterers in the 90s?  They sent Bill Clinton to the White House after all

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https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/bruce-springsteens-playlist/613378/ New Bruce Interview. 

I had my children Baptized, receive their First Holy Communion and participate in Confirmation.  I lead them toward God and Jesus, but at this point it is up to them whether or not they want to contin

As are many believers. He's also, specifically, an intelligent human being who has discussed at length just how deeply his Catholicism has affected him and continues to do so. I mean, even in this int

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23 hours ago, Jertucky said:

Maybe not, but he hasn’t been on that road in 40 or so years. And that road he traveled 40 years ago is not the same road that is there today. I feel like he is still clinging to his past when reality is that a lot has changed and is continuing to change.

Possibly, but are the thematics in Darkness less pertinent than they are today?

23 hours ago, Jertucky said:

 

And more change is needed, but it is coming. I work with families in the inner city and I see it. I’m not sure I would if I was in a different job.

Well, that's good.

Anecdotally, in terms of what  I see over here, things are regressing at an alarming rate....have been for a long time, well before Covid.

Disparity, disenfranchisement, division.....rife and getting rifer.

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22 hours ago, Silvia said:

Maybe this is part of the problem, and an endless source of extreme patriotism, and superiority complex? 

I get very suspicious of overt patriotism, no matter under which flag it manifests.

A very thin line between patriotism and jingoism in a certain light.

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3 hours ago, SoulBoogieAlex said:

. At the very least, Trumps voters never put enough weight into Trump's racism, misogyny, his discrimination on gender or religion to cast him aside as a viable candidate.  

Looking on from overseas, it appears some saw those very qualities as a positive.

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3 hours ago, Jertucky said:

Don’t they all do that? Isn’t Biden going to do that?

 

23 hours ago, MagicRatAFC said:

 

It strikes me, from the outside looking in,  the model doesn't change much no matter which party/individual is in power.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Jertucky said:

Who would argue that Springsteen isn’t partisan? I can’t imagine he would even argue that.

Is he though?

 

He's only gotten "party political" for a relatively limited period in his adult life.

 

The vote for change period, his support for Obama.............other than that, not so much really.

During the current regime it's only very recently that he has spoken out. We'll have to wait to see what, if anything, he does in the lead up to November.

 

Even during the Reagan years he espoused little beyond the "cease and desist".

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19 minutes ago, MagicRatAFC said:

Possibly, but are the thematics in Darkness less pertinent than they are today?

Well, that's good.

Anecdotally, in terms of what  I see over here, things are regressing at an alarming rate....have been for a long time, well before Covid.

Disparity, disenfranchisement, division.....rife and getting rifer.

I don’t know that the themes are more or less pertinent now as opposed to then. I do know that Colts Neck, NJ is a nice place to view the world from and not a great way to find out what’s happening in the inner city.

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8 minutes ago, MagicRatAFC said:

Is he though?

 

He's only gotten "party political" for a relatively limited period in his adult life.

 

The vote for change period, his support for Obama.............other than that, not so much really.

During the current regime it's only very recently that he has spoken out. We'll have to wait to see what, if anything, he does in the lead up to November.

 

Even during the Reagan years he espoused little beyond the "cease and desist".

I think we may be discussing two different things here. I have said on here before that Bruce’s music is not nearly as partisan as he is personally.
The partisanship does show up with Reagan, which was almost 40 years ago. Even then, I doubt he would have told the Democratic candidate (Walter Mondale I believe) to stop using his music.

On a personal level, I don’t care about his politics. They’re his politics. 

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34 minutes ago, rtb said:

So, do you believe most Americans were serial adulterers in the 90s?  They sent Bill Clinton to the White House after all

:D had he announced himself as such you might have a point. Though I would argue there’s a difference between a politician who excludes too many and one who includes too many.

And let’s not forget, the Clinton presidency turned out to be very problematic for African Americans in the long run. The Clinton’s justice reform attributed a lot to the mass incarceration of African Americans.

In the end, racism isn’t about politics. It is about human decency. As a reformed racist myself, I took a long time learning that. I was born on the notion that “they were not our kind of people.” Inferiority was never made explicit, but was often implied. It took a lot of my formative years and beyond to get most of it out of my system. 
 

I do not believe everyone who holds racist conviction sees them as explicitly so. Most of us are confronted with our prejudices when we interact with the other. That’s when we see and experience our prejudices for what they are. Holding prejudices and racist convictions is something a lot of us grew up with. It becomes problematic when we’re not open for self evaluation I guess.

The politics come in to play when politicians exploit our convictions for their own gain and start putting u against each other. I think that happens on both side of the spectrum. There’s Trump pandering to the one side but there’s also a lot of lip service being played on the other side of the spectrum. I’m not always certain which is more dangerous. That lip service feeds disappointment, dissatisfaction leads to animosity and makes rhetoric on the other side of the spectrum more attractive. One feeds of the other.

I feel it is up to us to simply say that this won’t stand. 

I thought Stevie Wonders words were very inspiring recently in that respect 

 

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1 hour ago, SoulBoogieAlex said:

In the end, racism isn’t about politics. It is about human decency. As a reformed racist myself, I took a long time learning that. I was born on the notion that “they were not our kind of people.” Inferiority was never made explicit, but was often implied. It took a lot of my formative years and beyond to get most of it out of my system. 
 

 

I grew up under similar circumstances, and I have to agree with you, it's not politics, it's hard work, it takes time, and it's as personal as it gets.

But the feeling is priceless, after you're finally there. 

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16 hours ago, Jertucky said:

I think we may be discussing two different things here. I have said on here before that Bruce’s music is not nearly as partisan as he is personally.
The partisanship does show up with Reagan, which was almost 40 years ago. Even then, I doubt he would have told the Democratic candidate (Walter Mondale I believe) to stop using his music.

On a personal level, I don’t care about his politics. They’re his politics. 

Possibly (your first sentence).

 

I take partisanship to mean staunch, possibly blind, loyalty to a specific organisation.......me with certain sports teams for example.

In a political context I take it to mean a political party.

This becomes more pronounced in two party systems like the U.S. and an extent England (rather than in the wider U.K.).

So I suppose you could argue he is "ethically partisan" in the sense that his ethos has remained  consistent in terms of his artistic output.

But I don't think you could ever accuse him of partisanship in favour of the Democrats, even though I'd speculate that he's voted for them....maybe exclusively......throughout his adult life. 

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I think he is definitely.a partisan Democrat. He will call out Republicans for things that he will remain silent on the Democrats doing things. Again, it doesn’t particularly matter to me because I am not listening to his music and thinking about his politics. 

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On that level, the D/R divide, no it doesn't really interest or bother me.

 

I like that his artistic ethos remains broadly aligned with my own.

We're he to release an album entitled, say, "I believe an unfettered free market is the basis on which an equitable society can be built" then, as catchy a title as that is, I'd probably have issues with it.

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1 hour ago, MagicRatAFC said:

On that level, the D/R divide, no it doesn't really interest or bother me.

 

I like that his artistic ethos remains broadly aligned with my own.

We're he to release an album entitled, say, "I believe an unfettered free market is the basis on which an equitable society can be built" then, as catchy a title as that is, I'd probably have issues with it.

And I would probably prefer that album over Western Stars.

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3 hours ago, Jertucky said:

I think he is definitely.a partisan Democrat.

I think it's the other way around. He's got a moral compass that guides him. To put it in simple terms: he supports the Democrats because he prefers a guy like Obama over a guy like Trump. If the Republicans had guys like Obama and the Democrats were into building walls to Mexico he would support the Republicans.

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39 minutes ago, TheBoss said:

I think it's the other way around. He's got a moral compass that guides him. To put it in simple terms: he supports the Democrats because he prefers a guy like Obama over a guy like Trump. If the Republicans had guys like Obama and the Democrats were into building walls to Mexico he would support the Republicans.

So you think he’s not partisan? I don’t get what you’re saying.

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43 minutes ago, Jertucky said:

So you think he’s not partisan? I don’t get what you’re saying.

I think his loyalty is with what he thinks is right, not with a particular politicial party. That's not being partisan by my definition.

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9 minutes ago, TheBoss said:

I think his loyalty is with what he thinks is right, not with a particular politicial party. That's not being partisan by my definition.

Fair enough. 

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23 hours ago, SoulBoogieAlex said:

:D had he announced himself as such you might have a point. Though I would argue there’s a difference between a politician who excludes too many and one who includes too many.

And let’s not forget, the Clinton presidency turned out to be very problematic for African Americans in the long run. The Clinton’s justice reform attributed a lot to the mass incarceration of African Americans.

In the end, racism isn’t about politics. It is about human decency. As a reformed racist myself, I took a long time learning that. I was born on the notion that “they were not our kind of people.” Inferiority was never made explicit, but was often implied. It took a lot of my formative years and beyond to get most of it out of my system. 
 

I do not believe everyone who holds racist conviction sees them as explicitly so. Most of us are confronted with our prejudices when we interact with the other. That’s when we see and experience our prejudices for what they are. Holding prejudices and racist convictions is something a lot of us grew up with. It becomes problematic when we’re not open for self evaluation I guess.

The politics come in to play when politicians exploit our convictions for their own gain and start putting u against each other. I think that happens on both side of the spectrum. There’s Trump pandering to the one side but there’s also a lot of lip service being played on the other side of the spectrum. I’m not always certain which is more dangerous. That lip service feeds disappointment, dissatisfaction leads to animosity and makes rhetoric on the other side of the spectrum more attractive. One feeds of the other.

I feel it is up to us to simply say that this won’t stand. 

I thought Stevie Wonders words were very inspiring recently in that respect 

 

Clinton was bad news for one African American in particular as he was campaigning for the presidency in1992. He went back to Arkansas to oversee the execution of Ricky Ray Rector. Rector was intellectually disabled to the extent he left his dessert from his last meal "for later". Clinton wanted to show he was tough on law and order. What better way than putting to death a black man to show you are not a liberal.

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